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> Copy Kills Music
jer
post Apr 14 2009, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE
but in this point you are mistaken.
It is not really a problem for people to download whole discographies with fullspeed without uploading anything.


I'm not familiar with any.

All torrent based sites and filesharing sites like kazaa and the like have you uploading the same thing you are downloading.

Even if you downloaded it and erased it immediately, while its downloading its available for upload simultaneously.


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MickeM
post Apr 14 2009, 09:58 PM
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Just a moderator reminder - Don't offer solutions to how to download without uploading. GMC doesn't support illegal filesharing.


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audiopaal
post Apr 14 2009, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE (Marcus Siepen @ Apr 14 2009, 05:34 PM) *
I don't think that a big band is less passionate by default than a small one, it all depends on the band. I have seen Kiss in front of 30000 people for example and they just rocked the place to the ground, while I have seen small bands in small clubs that were boring me to death. But this is a matter of personal taste I guess, there is nothing wrong in prefering clubs over arenas or vice versa, in my case I just like both.

About this money making thing, sure, if I play in a band and my albums just don't sell because nobody cares about my music, then I will have to look for a different way of making a living, the fact that I would like to be a successful musician of course doesn't make me successful by default. But here we are talking about a slightly different scenario, we are talking about musicians that have a (more or less) big following, just that the following doesn't pay for the music cause it can be downloaded for free on whatever filesharing sites. This is just wrong! And it is the same about Emir, he recorded a great album and if everybody that "has" the album would have paid for it he would have made some money. Now you suggest he should change his music to maybe sell more next time? Why should he change, he didn't do anything wrong, he did his job very well, just his "customers" didn't do their "job" at all, they prefered to download the album instead of paying for it.

About the legal situation, this is slightly different from country to country. here in Germany a privat copy is legal too, as long as you don't work around any copy protection. As soon as something is copy protected a privat copy is illegal. And downloading is not really illegal here either, just the uploading, but there is no filesharing system that lets you only download without offering the file for uploads too.


Very well said!!
It all depends on the band as you say..
And your second paragraph is just my opinion too!

Although, in Norway, I believe you're allowed to make a personal copy no matter what protection there's on the disk..
If I buy an album I'm allowed to copy it to my computer and have it on my iPod for example..
I guess this is different from country to country?

Anyway, very well written smile.gif
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jer
post Apr 14 2009, 10:26 PM
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I dont think anybody is concerned with copies for personal use. Trust me after 1 time of getting cds stolen from my car I have NEVER had a non-cdr in there again.

All my music is ripped to my PC. I stream it all over our house.

No one is concerned with that. (I dont think)

Yet these topics keep popping up when people hide behind what IS ok. Thats not what this thread is about.

If you want the music, pay for it!!!! Or listen to the radio, the radio pays the record companies.

Same with movies. If you want to watch it BUY IT. Or go to the theater. Or pay for HBO, who pays the movie companies.

Obtaining the contents of a cd or dvd without purchasing a legit version is stealing. And it does hurt the artists.

Is anyone disputing THAT?


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29a
post Apr 14 2009, 10:40 PM
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QUOTE (Marcus Siepen @ Apr 14 2009, 05:34 PM) *
Now you suggest he should change his music to maybe sell more next time? Why should he change, he didn't do anything wrong, he did his job very well, just his "customers" didn't do their "job" at all, they prefered to download the album instead of paying for it.
One could argue that he targeted the wrong "customers". But in the end that is his problem, the number of paying customers is to small (or the price to low, which I doubt).

Oh and about the big and small bands, I agree with you it's not a default. But it's a tendency I've noticed.

About copy protection, I don't buy cds with copyprotection on them nor DRM'd files so I don't have to worry about that.

QUOTE (jer @ Apr 14 2009, 11:26 PM) *
I dont think anybody is concerned with copies for personal use. Trust me after 1 time of getting cds stolen from my car I have NEVER had a non-cdr in there again.

All my music is ripped to my PC. I stream it all over our house.

No one is concerned with that. (I dont think)
Why do they bother me with pitiful copy protection mechanisms then?

QUOTE (jer @ Apr 14 2009, 11:26 PM) *
Obtaining the contents of a cd or dvd without purchasing a legit version is stealing. And it does hurt the artists.

Is anyone disputing THAT?
Jup, I do. First, copyright infringement is not theft. Second, as said before, there are cases in which obtaining the contents of a cd without purchasing it is legal and thereby definitely not theft.

...some how I feel like I lost track about the real topic of the discussion rolleyes.gif

Jonas

edit:
QUOTE (MickeM @ Apr 14 2009, 10:58 PM) *
Just a moderator reminder - Don't offer solutions to how to download without uploading. GMC doesn't support illegal filesharing.
Uhm, but according to most jurisdictions it would be legal filesharing then laugh.gif

This post has been edited by 29a: Apr 14 2009, 10:48 PM


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Koopid
post Apr 15 2009, 06:06 AM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Apr 14 2009, 10:58 PM) *
Just a moderator reminder - Don't offer solutions to how to download without uploading. GMC doesn't support illegal filesharing.


I agree with the moderation. I just want to add that over 50% of for example Piratebays uploads actually *are* legal. And that there are many ways to download without uploading.


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MickeM
post Apr 15 2009, 08:20 AM
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QUOTE (29a @ Apr 14 2009, 11:40 PM) *
Uhm, but according to most jurisdictions it would be legal filesharing then laugh.gif

Moderation remark: I want to take the opportunity to say that moderator reminders are not up for funny remarks or questioning. Our intention in such case is only to inform about a discussion getting out of hand, or like in this case to let everyone know what would be a violation of GMC rules to avoid for someone breaking them.
Just look at these remarks as information, not part of the discussion, so don't question or discuss them in public since it's not a contribution to a discussion.
/Micke on behalf of the moderation team


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Marcus Siepen
post Apr 15 2009, 10:07 AM
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I also don't see any problem of making copies for PRIVATE use, I copy my music to my computers, to my ipod, and to cdrs in my car, no problem with that, the problem starts when you give away those copies or the music itself to others, no matter if you agree or not, this IS harming the artist! And those copies should be made of something that you actually bought before of course...

About filesharing in general (and I absolutely agree with the moderators, this should definitely not turn into a topic about how to download anything), no matter if somebody finds a "legal" way to download something or not, NO band that records and releases albums wants this. If a band wants to spread its music for free, why should it record an album then? They could put all their music on theit homepage for free and everybody would be happy, fine, but albums are for sale, not presents.


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Skalde
post Apr 15 2009, 10:53 AM
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QUOTE (Marcus Siepen @ Apr 15 2009, 11:07 AM) *
NO band that records and releases albums wants this. If a band wants to spread its music for free, why should it record an album then? They could put all their music on theit homepage for free and everybody would be happy, fine, but albums are for sale, not presents.


Eisbrecher - One of their albums contains their cd + 2 blank CDs with the demand to burn this cd. And Eisbrecher is a quite successfull band here in Germany.

Trent Reznor(Nine Inch Nails) - Free songs / albums on his website + he spreads 400GB(!) high defintion live material to his fans + albums with cc-license

What I can't understand is that some Bands, sue their fans for sharing songs. These fans support the band even if they have some illegal songs by buying some of their albums, buying marchandise, visiting concerts..
This is how you do not make friends.
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wrk
post Apr 15 2009, 11:54 AM
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QUOTE (Marcus Siepen @ Apr 13 2009, 09:00 PM) *
... in the end the venue comes and demands 30% of your merch money or you are not allowed to sell anything at the concert...

Pff .. thats an interesting information, i didn't know that 30% of merchandize revenues have to be paid. I guess this is just one example along the chain between the artist and the customer. Things like this makes me angry as it shows that something is completely wrong in this business. Both, artists on one side and the customers on the other side have to pay the bill and in the middle everybody is earning money.

This does not at all justify illegal downloads, but i still believe that it's not right to put all the fault to the customers and to declare illegal downloads as the only and main reason for this mess.

Statements like "illegal downloads = stealing" are catchy and for sure true somehow, but the 30% merchandize example shows that there is a lot more "stealing" going on.

I think artists would be better of if they find a way to get organized together with the customers and start to change something. Maybe i'm a bit naive, but i think a lot of people are basically willing to pay if they would know that the majority of the money arrives where it belongs.



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Saoirse O'Shea
post Apr 15 2009, 11:57 AM
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QUOTE (Skalde @ Apr 15 2009, 09:53 AM) *
...
Trent Reznor(Nine Inch Nails) - Free songs / albums on his website + he spreads 400GB(!) high defintion live material to his fans + albums with cc-license

...


WRT cc - music industry contracts tend to be very restrictive and may not allow for any creative commons licensing. The contracts rarely give the musician any real control over the distribution and marketing of their material. Some big name musicians put up material like this in contravention of their contract. Don't know about Trent here but Public Enemy, for instance, did so when they were in dispute with their old record label.

A similar situation exists in book/manuscript publishing. I put the majority of my academic publications out via cc. but many commercial publisher contracts explicitly forbid this. TBH as an author publishing contracts tend to be very one sided in favor of the publisher and not the author. Just like music industry contracts dry.gif .


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Skalde
post Apr 15 2009, 12:15 PM
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I think wrk mentionend some important aspects here. I buy a lot of albums of bands who don't have a contract yet. They sell their albums on their webpage on their own for 10bucks. This are 10 bucks who arrive to 100% at the band.
When I buy a album for let's say 20bucks in a local store I doubt that the bands gets a share of 10 bucks .(honestly I don't know big the cut for the bands actually is, just guessing)

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jer
post Apr 15 2009, 01:53 PM
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I ALWAYS buy new albums from the artists. Evn if its thru the merch links at their websites. They may not get all of the money, but they're gonna get more than if I go to Best Buy.....



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Skalde
post Apr 15 2009, 02:05 PM
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What do you mean by "best buy"? cheapest buy / second hand buy?
As I said, don't get me wrong, I paid for the music I like.
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jer
post Apr 15 2009, 02:09 PM
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Sorry, I forget that as a USA native I am a minority here.

Its that American arrogance. wink.gif

Best Buy is a large retail chain here. They are pretty much the only reamining "music store" when it comes to cds and stuff like that.




QUOTE (Skalde @ Apr 15 2009, 08:05 AM) *
What do you mean by "best buy"? cheapest buy / second hand buy?
As I said, don't get me wrong, I paid for the music I like.



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Marcus Siepen
post Apr 15 2009, 08:08 PM
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I have to say that I don't know Eisbrecher at all and I am also not really familiar with Nine Inch Nails / Reznor, but I seriously doubt that any of them go to the studio, record a new album (and pay studio, producer, cover, mastering...) just to give it away as a free present on their web page. Many bands put live recordings online, we did this too, when we recorded "Live" the original idea was to release it as a tripple cd, the regular 2 cd's plus a third one with outtakes, but Virgin only wanted to release the 2 disc version, so we put the outtakes online.
And as Tony pointed out, not every band is allowed to do this anyway, record deals can be very restrictive about such things.


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post Apr 15 2009, 09:03 PM
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Personally i had downloaded some songs illegally even though i was paying for napster to go. I learned the hard way though when my computer crashed from limewire. From then on i have bought cds. I just love to see the album art inside the booklets and read the lyrics. I love even more that i can say i have the physical copy of my favorites bands cds. My friends strongly think i am weird for buying cds but i tell them that i am supporting my favorite bands. Even though i still use napster to go and download new music i tend to listen to the albums i buy much more. I don't always agree with the fact that you should be able to listen to the music first free, buy later. I feel that if you have bought a bands albums before and you enjoyed them you should feel that every album they put out is great. I bought BG's Imaginations from the other side first and i fell immensely in love with their music and i basically bought all of their other albums without ever thinking what they will sound like. This statement holds true for the other bands i like such as coheed and cambria and Iced Earth. I have finally got my friend to delete his illegal stash and buy them legally on itunes. The most funny thing i got told though when i told a fellow classmate that i use napster they said that was illegal while they are using limewire. I tell them that they are not paying for the music so how is their method legal? They answer it's just music.


P.S. Marcus i have the live cd where exactly is the outtakes and please can you get your crew and jon to tour together again in the U.S.?
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jer
post Apr 15 2009, 09:26 PM
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thats 3 for the US!!!!!

Come on, we need about 3000 more to make it worthwhile to come here and do a show for us.



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Marcus Siepen
post Apr 15 2009, 09:35 PM
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See, this is the problem I am talking about, when somebody thinks you are weird because you actually pay for a cd then something is VERY wrong...

About the outtakes, we had them online on our homepage back when "Live" was released, but I guess it is not online there anymore. I know I still have it somewhere, I just don't know where wink.gif


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Marek Rojewski
post Apr 15 2009, 09:41 PM
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Yeah, most of presents I bought for my girlfriend were cd's, some people couldn't understand why I do it, why she wants it, instead of burning her 4GB of music in one go... I blame poverty and communism for such mentality, but as we can read even here, without these two, people act the same..


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