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> Copy Kills Music
Canis
post May 21 2008, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE (Marcus Siepen @ May 21 2008, 06:06 PM) *
Pearl Jam? forget about them, invest your money in Blind Guardian from now on tongue.gif

Quoted for truth rolleyes.gif

I've been wondering something, and who better to ask then someone from within the game itself, like Blind Guardian? =)
How much money do you get for each album you sell? I'm not snooping around to find out how much money is on your paycheck tongue.gif I mean like, do you get some percent of each album/concert you do, or do most of the money go to the record company, or something like that?
And do you earn less now then before, because of the copying?

This post has been edited by Canis: May 21 2008, 06:56 PM


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Tjchep
post May 21 2008, 07:43 PM
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Didn't read the whole post.. but I read enough to tell you about my experiences.

My attitude has changed a bit towards music defiantly the only albums that I really wait for are my favorite bands and some instrumental stuff. Because for the most part, there are not alot of really truely good new bands coming up. They are all blown up pop bands, which the guitarist only knows how to play a power chord.

The reason why I don't buy that much normal music that my peers would listen to is mainly because everyone has it.. you hear it on the radio.. you have people talking about it all the time and theres just no point to waste your money on what are potentially studio mock ups.

I have just lost a bit of respect to alot of bands out there because alot go from being a garage band never even gigged before, then to being a headliner on warped tour or something.

But music is cheap anyways.. its much easier to download full quality songs than to download a crappy quality song off limewire..


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blindwillie
post May 21 2008, 08:33 PM
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Well put Tony and Daniel.
Wish I could express myself that clearly in english.

QUOTE (black and white @ May 21 2008, 02:16 PM) *
Regardless of why, if you take something that is not rightfully yours, that is stealing, and in most places, illegal.

At least in Sweden, and I know in other countries too, copying is NOT stealing. Per definition in the law text.
It's illegal yes, but it is not stealing.

And the fact that something is written in law texts doesn't make it the right and an absolute truth. We still have the right and should debate the purpose of laws, what value and justice they bring and to whom. If we think they are wrong we should work to change them.
It was legal to download any copyrighted material in Sweden up 'til 3 years ago (I'm uncertain about the time).
Would you say that before the law change everything was OK? If so, was it wrong to change it? Who tried to change it and why? We already had a law regulating this.
And now, just because there is another decision everything is upside down, but it is still OK because it is the law?
That law was enforced very hasty and under circumstances that has been much debated.

In an african country, unfortunatly I don't remember which one, they claim to be the biggest movie producing country in the world. They claim that Hollywood produce 600 movies a year, Bollywood 1200 and this country 1600 movies a year. In a country that lacks any kind of copyright laws. Bootleggers don't sell domestic CDs because the pirated copies gets as expensive as an original, so noone buys a copy. There goes the argument that we have to have copyright regulations to encourage creativity. Try to find a documentary called "Good copy, bad copy".

The historical meaning of the word copyright is exactly what it says. From the start it was not a way to give the creator certain rights or encouregement. It was a monopoly given by the government (in England) to a selected few publishers to enforce censorship. "If you follow our directives you will get the exclusive right to print this". Copy-right. They also got the right to raid non-authorized publishers and demolish their equipment. Very convenient for the government.


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Joe Kataldo
post May 21 2008, 08:46 PM
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100% agree with you, only think I'd like to add is that price of cds at least in my county are to high and this accentuate more the illegal sharing, I don't know you, but I can perfectly hear the difference between an 128 Kbps mp3 and a real one, I still buy what I really like, but sometime, High price really take you to the dark side of sharing

This post has been edited by Joe Kataldo: May 21 2008, 08:48 PM


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Toni Suominen
post May 21 2008, 09:10 PM
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I agree with you Marcus, your story has definitely made me appreciate my album-collection more. The feeling of going out and buying an album and really holding it in your hands is really great, something that just downloading it off the internet cannot do.


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black and white
post May 21 2008, 10:34 PM
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This is the US legal definition of copyright. Not sure if, or how things are applied in other countries. It seems to indictate that the author has the right to distribute his creation. When you copy without permission from an author, you are infringing on that persons right since he has no authority to grant you access to his work. When you purchase, you are actually entering into a pre agreed contract. For this dollar amount, you can use this material. I am not sure at all how things work in other countries and if they do not have the same rules (laws) then one would not be stealing in that country. Whether it is ethical is another question, but technically you would not be stealing IMHO. Good points you bring up BlindWille. interesting how there can be so many different laws in different countries.....and there in lies a lot of the problem. The internet crosses so many countries....and there are not any real laws...........Tricky problem.

copyright
1) n. the exclusive right of the author or creator of a literary or artistic property (such as a book, movie or musical composition) to print, copy, sell, license, distribute, transform to another medium, translate, record or perform or otherwise use (or not use) and to give it to another by will. As soon as a work is created and is in a tangible form (such as writing or taping) the work automatically has federal copyright protection. On any distributed and/or published work a notice should be affixed stating the word copyright, copy or ©, with the name of the creator and the date of copyright (which is the year of first publication). The notice should be on the title page or the page immediately following and for graphic arts on a clearly visible or accessible place. A work should be registered with the U.S. Copyright Office by submitting a registration form and two copies of the work with a fee which a) establishes proof of earliest creation and publication, cool.gif is required to file a lawsuit for infringement of copyright, c) if filed within three months of publication, establishes a right to attorneys' fees in an infringement suit. Copyrights cover the following: literary, musical and dramatic works, periodicals, maps, works of art (including models), art reproductions, sculptural works, technical drawings, photographs, prints (including labels), movies and other audiovisual works, computer programs, compilations of works and derivative works, and architectural drawings. Not subject to copyright are short phrases, titles, extemporaneous speeches or live unrecorded performances, common information, government publications, mere ideas, and seditious, obscene, libelous and fraudulent work. For any work created from 1978 to date, a copyright is good for the author's life, plus 50 years, with a few exceptions such as work "for hire" which is owned by the one commissioning the work for a period of 75 years from publication. After that it falls into the public domain. Many, but not all, countries recognize international copyrights under the "Universal Copyright Convention," to which the United States is a party.

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petar64
post May 21 2008, 11:42 PM
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I agree with you Marcus, but not in all points.

For me, the internet is to blame. I think that the internet and the "virtual world" changed peoples inhibitions.
They dont have the feeling that they are doing something wrong and criminal because its like virtual.
I think that most of the people who download music illegally from the internet would never go to a real shop, take a real physical cd and steal it. They would not dare because they are afraid that they get caught by the police. But when they download the music from internet, they are at home, alone, nobady sees or blames them so they dont have the feeling that they are steeling something.

I compare it with the fact, that in our modern civilization many people run into big depts because they buy in online shops and pay with creditcard. They dont have the feeling that they spend a lot of money. When you go to a real shop and pay with real and hard earned money you will think twice what you buy.

I also cant hear this excuses anymore from younger people like "i dont have the money so i have to download "ahm...steal" it"
This doesnt make it legal. Everybody is having things he cant effort and is not stealing it. Its my lifetimedream to have an own house but i dont have the money to buy one. So what? Should i go and steal one? sure not.

You are right, there has always been copying. I remember when i was young (long time ago rolleyes.gif ) i also made copys from LPs to tapes or from radio to tapes. And there will always be copying because the internet helps here as well - you dont need to know somebody who owns the album- you can find everythiing in the net.

I have a big CD- and still a LP-collection at home (not to forget the computer games). I have my favourite groups and from them i own every album. Sure i also download things from time to time. When a group is new to me i want to check if i like it. And when i like it I buy the CD. Not only because i love to have originals and love the booklets.

Its a benefit for me as well. If a band can live from their Music they will go on making more good music - and I can enjoy it.

Petar
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OrganisedConfusi...
post May 22 2008, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE (Sam Hook @ May 21 2008, 04:50 PM) *
Do you honestly have time to listen to all of those albums all the way through more than once?

I don't even have time to listen to them once a lot of the time lol biggrin.gif But I always whack them on my i-pod so they will come up eventually. I have 80,000 tracks on there. About 6 months of music biggrin.gif


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Hisham Al-Sanea
post May 22 2008, 09:14 AM
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nice topic Marcus i agree with you


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OrganisedConfusi...
post May 22 2008, 09:15 AM
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I had a question actually Marcus that I don't know if you have answered. What do you think of people downloading live concerts by your band or any band that aren't available to buy and that you are unlikely to release?


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Juan M. Valero
post May 22 2008, 11:42 AM
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I don't think that copy kills music. The most important for a band are the concerts, so I think it's better when lot of people listen your music... of course if download something and you like it the best is buying the CD, but if need to choose in what spend my money I'll choose in going to a concert of the band better than getting his CD.


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OrganisedConfusi...
post May 22 2008, 11:44 AM
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But bands don't get to play big enough concerts to get money if they don't sell enough albums.


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Juan M. Valero
post May 22 2008, 11:57 AM
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mmm yeah, that's true tongue.gif


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Trond Vold
post May 22 2008, 11:59 AM
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I fully agree with everything you said Marcus.

I download quite a bit of music though, but to me it's more of a quality-check then just settling for a copy. Kind of like listening through the album in a store with the exception that you dont have a grumpy storeclerk waiting for you to finish smile.gif
If i like it i will buy it as soon as i can.

The same goes for movies and such. If i like a movie, i wont settle for a crummy and compressed divx/xvid. But problem is that most movies i'm after are nearly impossible to find on dvd or vhs.
I sometimes have to settle for a copy made by another collector.
Same thing probably applies to people thats after more obscure music, with bands that only release limited cdr's etc.


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post May 22 2008, 11:59 AM
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I know a lot of signed bands early on which have toured and actually spent the same as they earnt or spent more than they earnt.


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Toni Suominen
post May 22 2008, 12:25 PM
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Btw Marcus, do you know how albums leak to the internet before they are released? I've always wondered this, and I know that before an album is released, it is sent to journalists in music magazines etc. for reviews and such. Does this cause the album to be leaked? like does some journalist upload it into the internet or something?





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superize
post May 22 2008, 12:58 PM
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have been following this thread very much and after reading everyones thoughts i got a bad conscience so i ordered three cheap albums. Follow the blind by Blind Guardian, Fantasy By Insania and Rhapsody live in canada. I got all of theese for ábout 30 dollars(Shipping included). So there are cheap albums to find.......

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post May 22 2008, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (superize @ May 22 2008, 12:58 PM) *
have been following this thread very much and after reading everyones thoughts i got a bad conscience so i ordered three sheap albums. Follow the blind by Blind Guardian, Fantasy By Insania and Rhapsody live in canada. I got all of theese for ábout 30 dollars(Shipping included). So there are sheap albums to find.......

sheap lol. Twice biggrin.gif

Do you mean sheep or cheap tongue.gif biggrin.gif


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superize
post May 22 2008, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ May 22 2008, 02:01 PM) *
sheap lol. Twice biggrin.gif

Do you mean sheep or cheap tongue.gif biggrin.gif


Yeah sorry about that biggrin.gif


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Marcus Siepen
post May 22 2008, 01:06 PM
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Thanks a lot for all your comments guys.

@ Petar: Of course most of those people would never go to a record store and just steal a cd, they would be way too afraid to be caught. But at home, all alone, hiding behind their monitors, they feel safe, so they have no problems with downloading. Still I can't blame the internet for this. The internet is nothing but a tool, that can be used, and also abused. The internet itself does not distribute pirated copies of cds, people do this.

And about this aspect of downloading some songs to check out a band, as I said before, I do this myself from time to time, I also got too lazy to go to a shop and look for the album wink.gif I don't think this is a big problem, as long as you buy the cd in case you like it. As I said, the internet can be a great way to promote your band.

about this money thing, I guess it is not a big secret that a big part of the money that you guys pay for a cd stays with teh record company or the distributors, the shop itself also wants to earn a bit, but it is not that I as a musician only get a few cents, I earn a bit more from record sales. But all this depends on the status of the band too of course, a big and established band will for sure be able to get a much better contract than a young newcomer.

About leaking albums, unfortunately there are many possible ways for an unreleased cd to end up on the net. One source is press, yes. It happened many times already that promo copies have been sent to magazines for reviews, and on the next day the album was online. Thats the reason why many bands don't give away any promo copies anymore, instead of this there are listening parties where press people can listen to the album as much as they want, but they don't get copies anymore. Another source is the actual production of the album. At some point you will have to give away the master, so the final cds can be produced, and you can almost be sure that a few days later the album is online...

And about the question if Blind Guardian is affected by downloading, there is just one answer: yes, we are, any band on this planet is, the musician that answers this question with no is lying!


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