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> Hadron Collider ( An Atom Smasher )
The Uncreator
post Jun 29 2008, 02:06 PM
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080628/ap_on_...omsday_collider


Definitely look promising, We might be able to discover new dimensions with this, Which would be good for String Theorist, and prove that Dark Matter exists, and find new particles and all that good stuff. I figure science and tech geeks might like this smile.gif

PS

Did I mention that some people think It will destroy Earth? laugh.gif

Some people believe that it might cause micro black holes, Or any other of a various of "cataclysmic events". There something like 1 and 50 million chance it will happen
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Andrew6
post Jun 29 2008, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jun 29 2008, 10:06 AM) *
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080628/ap_on_...omsday_collider


Definitely look promising, We might be able to discover new dimensions with this, Which would be good for String Theorist, and prove that Dark Matter exists, and find new particles and all that good stuff. I figure science and tech geeks might like this smile.gif


Thanks for the article ! i've been following the development of that for years! There are a lot of high risk associated with that kind of experiment though if your interested read into the possibility of generating black holes, stranglets and all that fun stuff tongue.gif


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The Uncreator
post Jun 29 2008, 02:34 PM
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Yeah, I've read up on some of them. But we have a few of them already and have been operating for a few years without problem. Although this is 7 times more powerful and larger (I think compared to the next biggest), I doubt anything would happen. I'm sure if they even thought that this could destroy earth, They wouldn't proceed.

And about Strangelets, I've always wondered what these mystery particles would do, I know one (Which I believe has a more specific name) is supposed to give matter its mass.
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Nemanja Filipovi...
post Jun 29 2008, 02:54 PM
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Who knows whats next....warp speed.smile.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jun 30 2008, 12:03 PM
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Supersymmetric particles and Higgs Bosons - they would be the biggest finds!

I'm not a believer in String Theory - I think it is turning out to be a dead end due to its lack of background independance and lately its increasing reliance on the weak Anthropic Principle - time to let some fresh ideas get funded!

As for mini black holes - someone just proved they won't be a problem ... that will be comforting when Earth and the whole Solar System is swallowed by a new black hole!


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Andrew6
post Jun 30 2008, 12:07 PM
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Yeah that would be a slight downside to the LHC, a black hole destroying us all that is tongue.gif


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The Uncreator
post Jun 30 2008, 05:38 PM
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And string theory needs a minimum of 10 dimensions to actually be proven, So far we're still at 3 laugh.gif
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FrankW
post Jul 1 2008, 11:31 PM
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Did you know that two physicists from CERN, where the super collider resides, invented the worldwide web?
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jul 2 2008, 09:14 AM
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Cool I can't wait. Thank god for the people who helped to build the CERN particle accelerator. smile.gif


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fkalich
post Jul 2 2008, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jun 30 2008, 11:38 AM) *
And string theory needs a minimum of 10 dimensions to actually be proven, So far we're still at 3 laugh.gif


Actually 4.

The mathematics using time as #4 have been empirically tested to be correct. you yield correct results using time as 4th dimension, so that is that.

5 though 10 are still as you say no proven (no testing has been able to validate the theory). Actually I believe we need 11, not 10. 10 leaves you with a variety of string theory models, 11 unites them.
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SinoMan
post Jul 2 2008, 12:27 PM
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Exactly what fkalich said. With 10 dimensions you've got 5 different string theories.

With 11 dimensions, we have a single M-theory which seems to explain origin of the universe.


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DeepRoots
post Jul 2 2008, 12:31 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Jun 29 2008, 02:06 PM) *
Some people believe that it might cause micro black holes, Or any other of a various of "cataclysmic events". There something like 1 and 50 million chance it will happen


Did you check the odds of winning the lottery?

I'm worried... wink.gif
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SinoMan
post Jul 2 2008, 01:02 PM
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1 is 50 million is very possible actually. Even less probable events have already happened...

Not that I'm worried though cool.gif


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fkalich
post Jul 2 2008, 01:22 PM
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QUOTE (SinoMan @ Jul 2 2008, 07:02 AM) *
1 is 50 million is very possible actually. Even less probable events have already happened...

Not that I'm worried though cool.gif


When the first Atomic Bomb was being developed, the scientists are got scared because there was a theoretical probability of setting off a chain reaction in the atmosphere. They determined that it was not possible, after some calculations, and went ahead.

When the first explosion was made a trinity, one of the Scientists thought it was engulfing the Atmosphere "even though he knew that was impossible".


My question is, if he knew that was impossible, why the fear at the time, by one of the leading scientists involved.

Seems like you guys have a lot more faith than I have in these guys and organizations not being willing to take risks unacceptable to to mass of humanity, to further funding and their careers.

My understanding is that they are doing nothing that has not been demonstrated occurr naturally without the doomsday effect. If so, I consider it safe. Then they are doing nothing that does not occur around us anyway. I understand that is the case. Hopefully.

If not, I don't consider it safe, no matter what they say. That community will do anything to keep funding. And if you think they would not risk extinction of the planet to some extent for career advancement, you are naive.

If these experiments do not occur naturally around us, they are playing with fire, doing something that man has never done, and that does not occur in nature. You will never find bigger egos than in that community, but they don't know the unknown, I don't care how many calculations they slam at you. If it does not occur in nature, it has got to be dangerous. They are not gods. Scientific knowledge is always limited, and incorrect to an extent, that is always the case, history has shown that. But history has also shown that scientists think they have all the answers.

Again, I understand that such collisions do occur all the time, naturally. Hopefully they are not hiding something.
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Saoirse O'Shea
post Jul 2 2008, 02:36 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Jul 2 2008, 12:22 PM) *
When the first Atomic Bomb was being developed, the scientists are got scared because there was a theoretical probability of setting off a chain reaction in the atmosphere. They determined that it was not possible, after some calculations, and went ahead.
...


And Bob Oppenheimer said, 'I have become Death, destroyer of worlds' (quoting from the Bhagavad Gita) when he witnessed the destructive power of the A bomb. I think he later also went on to say that he wished he had never been involved in the A bomb project but, rather like Pandora's Box, too late.

As a side issue, the philosopher Edith Wyschogrod (Spirit in Ashes) makes the comment that perhaps THE discerning feature of the 20th C was our ability to kill on a massive scale at inter-continental distance in absentia.

Back on topic - years ago I used to work down the road from Daresbury Cyclotron - serendipitously my work was on electron beam guns and atom ablation so I got to go to Daresbury a few times - very interesting place.

Cheers,
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USAMAN
post Jul 2 2008, 02:45 PM
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Amazing Engineering.
This thing is one massive undertaking.
Its so cool to see stuff like this being done.


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SinoMan
post Jul 2 2008, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Jul 2 2008, 02:22 PM) *
...

My understanding is that they are doing nothing that has not been demonstrated occurr naturally without the doomsday effect. If so, I consider it safe. Then they are doing nothing that does not occur around us anyway. I understand that is the case. Hopefully.

If not, I don't consider it safe, no matter what they say.

...


No matter how long I've been reading your opinions for, you still keep surprising the hell out of me. blink.gif


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jdriver
post Jul 7 2008, 04:12 AM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Jul 1 2008, 03:31 PM) *
Did you know that two physicists from CERN, where the super collider resides, invented the worldwide web?


Sir Tim Berners-Lee is generally credited with inventing the web. He did it while using a Next box. As you may know, Apple bought Next and it became OSX. biggrin.gif

Berners-Lee was knighted as a result, hence the "Sir."


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Andrew6
post Jul 7 2008, 04:18 AM
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QUOTE (jdriver @ Jul 7 2008, 12:12 AM) *
Sir Tim Berners-Lee is generally credited with inventing the web. He did it while using a Next box. As you may know, Apple bought Next and it became OSX. biggrin.gif

Berners-Lee was knighted as a result, hence the "Sir."


But who was Mr. Berners-Lee working for ? CERN of course tongue.gif the project was called enquire I believe or something along those lines.

So really you are both right !

This post has been edited by Andrew6: Jul 7 2008, 04:18 AM


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 7 2008, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE (SinoMan @ Jul 2 2008, 07:27 AM) *
With 11 dimensions, we have a single M-theory which seems to explain origin of the universe.


Well, to be precise, with M-theory you get a mathematical construct that if primed with the correct input variables could in theory explain our particular universe. Problem is, it also explains 10 to the power of 500 other universes and makes absolutely no prediction why any one in particular should be preferred over any other, or indeed why we have the one that we do. In fact, M-theory is so complicated, that we currently only have rough approximations to its real equations based on peterbation theory.

Further more, M-theory makes no predictions about where space-time comes from - it assumes it exists and builds upon it, it therefore is not background independant - this means that even if it does work out, there is another level behind it to explain where space-time actually comes from.

M-theory lacks predictive power at the moment, so for me it fails as a valid theory of everything. I am further concerned that in an attempt to keep it valid, its proponents have invoked the Weak anthropic principle and said that "Since a universe with these properties is conducive to life, it should be no surprise that we are alive and living in it" - whilst seductive, this is no basis for a predictive theory.

M-theory may turn out to be a valid model of the universe, especially if we can get hold of its precise structure - there may be some twist just around the corner that makes it all make sense, however, I think that the lack of predictive power and the invocation of the anthropic principle may be signs of a theory in trouble.


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