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> Payday Blues!, ...do those exist? YES
USAMAN
post Jul 12 2008, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (jdriver @ Jul 12 2008, 05:24 PM) *
That's the least of the reasons not to. How about, we're trillions in debt, our biggest banks are failing, we have unlimited warrantless surveillance by the government now, and oh yeah, the Geneva Conventions are "quaint" and torture is now perfectly okay as long as we call it necessary.


I can also list thousands of reasons this is still a great country. Dont knock it till you try somewhere else for reference purposes.
Im not knocking anywhere else , just saying I love it here and even with its warts its still is a great place to live.

We Americans have it so soft 2 cars ...a big house....family...freedom...a job....Space...I have a back yard thats an acre....etc and still complain. If you WORK HARD you will prosper here.
To me the glass is half full.

There is a reason so many people want to come here....Its not even close to as bad as you think.

From a US marine that has seen the bad and this aint it.

P.S.
wire taps are not limitless...
You got me on debt.....Totally a government spending problem.
Torture is subjective by definition. What we do would be considered luxury if you were captured by our enemys. Three squares a day, a koran, prayer time, access to our court system not military court, and for some reason, the protection of our great constitution which i will never understand.

peace.




QUOTE (black and white @ Jul 12 2008, 06:02 PM) *
That is the great thing about the states. If you do not like things where you currently live, you can move to another state, perhaps one that does not have a state tax like Texas or Florida. You even have the ability to leave the country and move to another one if you so choose.

Not discounting any of the things that were mentioned previously, but having the freedom to make these choices is something often overlooked and under appreciated. I for one, have no problem paying taxes (although I too wish they were less)..But taxes afford me good roads to drive on, schools for my child, utilities, transit, local government and tons of other things that make the US a great place to live.


AMEN Brother!



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USAMAN
post Jul 12 2008, 07:09 PM
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Ive said my piece..
nuffsaid on this.


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JuanMV
post Jul 12 2008, 07:14 PM
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I think the US is a great place to live in. I have had the luck to travel everywhere, and of course there are a lot of other countries where I would like to live, but this thread is about the US, so I will focus on that. Here’s what I think:

QUOTE (fatb0t @ Jul 11 2008, 09:49 AM) *
All the illegal immigrants in my country pay no taxes and make technically more than me ultimately! - Very upsetting
(Though I suppose they work much harder)


Yes, but you won’t find Americans doing the type of work immigrants do. For you, that’s a “necessary evil”.

QUOTE (USAMAN @ Jul 12 2008, 02:16 PM) *
We Americans have it so soft 2 cars ...a big house....family...freedom...a job....Space...I have a back yard thats an acre....etc and still complain. If you WORK HARD you will prosper here.


USAMAN, I don’t know about your personal situation, if you are a millionaire this doesn’t apply to you, but American’s consumption is based on debt, and you can’t deny that the personal savings rate in the US is incredibly low right now. Two thirds of your GDP is consumption, and your consumption is being financed by the rest of the world, mainly Asian Central Banks that keep buying your debt in order to try and sustain the value of the US dollar, so that they can keep selling you stuff. But US indebtedness is a growing threat not only to you, but to global stability, because if the US were to seriously try to balance its international accounts (by a devaluation, for example), European and Asian countries would lose export markets due to a decline in the value of the dollar, and they will experience huge losses on foreign asset holdings, because THEY have all your debt. Could it be that the US is too big to fall? I don’t know, it sounds to me that something has to give sometime, and unfortunately that will hurt. You can’t keep taking debt and creating financial bubbles forever. The world is changing man… 20 years ago, the mortgage and financial crisis in the US would have triggered a financial crisis in countries like mine (Argentina), but right now we are pretty much independent of your situation, as we depend on China wacko.gif So I don’t know… I could write a lot about this, but anyways… I really like the US and its people… it’s a fantastic country to live in… but personally, I would never leave my country… I’m too attached to it you know… I remember when I was in NY and I was incredibly excited about being in probably the most amazing city in the world, but after a while, you know, I just missed my people, my food, my life… I guess that when you really love your flag, there’s no other country that will make you happy but yours…
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USAMAN
post Jul 12 2008, 07:58 PM
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QUOTE (JuanMV @ Jul 12 2008, 07:14 PM) *
I think the US is a great place to live in. I have had the luck to travel everywhere, and of course there are a lot of other countries where I would like to live, but this thread is about the US, so I will focus on that. Here’s what I think:



Yes, but you won’t find Americans doing the type of work immigrants do. For you, that’s a “necessary evil”.



USAMAN, I don’t know about your personal situation, if you are a millionaire this doesn’t apply to you, but American’s consumption is based on debt, and you can’t deny that the personal savings rate in the US is incredibly low right now. Two thirds of your GDP is consumption, and your consumption is being financed by the rest of the world, mainly Asian Central Banks that keep buying your debt in order to try and sustain the value of the US dollar, so that they can keep selling you stuff. But US indebtedness is a growing threat not only to you, but to global stability, because if the US were to seriously try to balance its international accounts (by a devaluation, for example), European and Asian countries would lose export markets due to a decline in the value of the dollar, and they will experience huge losses on foreign asset holdings, because THEY have all your debt. Could it be that the US is too big to fall? I don’t know, it sounds to me that something has to give sometime, and unfortunately that will hurt. You can’t keep taking debt and creating financial bubbles forever. The world is changing man… 20 years ago, the mortgage and financial crisis in the US would have triggered a financial crisis in countries like mine (Argentina), but right now we are pretty much independent of your situation, as we depend on China wacko.gif So I don’t know… I could write a lot about this, but anyways… I really like the US and its people… it’s a fantastic country to live in… but personally, I would never leave my country… I’m too attached to it you know… I remember when I was in NY and I was incredibly excited about being in probably the most amazing city in the world, but after a while, you know, I just missed my people, my food, my life… I guess that when you really love your flag, there’s no other country that will make you happy but yours…


I agree 100% Juan.
Especially with the last part about loving your country. I think everyone has a special pride in the place of their birth.







{Yes, but you won’t find Americans doing the type of work immigrants do. For you, that’s a “necessary evil}

Thats the type of statement I find personally offensive.
Are you kidding me. Speak for yourself. I've done it all and will continue to to pay my bills. Ive worked very hard for everything I have and I'm proud.

I'd deport all Illegal Immigrants today, afterall they are ILLEGAL. They are not a "necessary evil", they are a burden on society. Maybe then parents would make their lazy spoiled kids would go get a job and put down the xbox controller.


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JuanMV
post Jul 12 2008, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE (USAMAN @ Jul 12 2008, 03:58 PM) *
Thats the type of statement I find personally offensive.
Are you kidding me. Speak for yourself. I've done it all and will continue to to pay my bills. Ive worked very hard for everything I have and I'm proud.

I'd deport all Illegal Immigrants today, afterall they are ILLEGAL. They are not a "necessary evil", they are a burden on society. Maybe then parents would make their lazy spoiled kids would go get a job and put down the xbox controller.


It was not my intention to offend you man. As a matter of fact I agree 100% with you in cleaning up everything that is ILLEGAL. I would do that in my country as well. I was just following fatb0t line of reasoning. One thing though, you live in Minnesota (a beautiful State BTW, amazing parks and lakes, Minneapolis is great also) and you know, the midwest doesn't have as much as illegal immigrants as, I don't know, California. Honestly, if you go to Califonia, you won't find American bricklayers man. I don't know about Minnesota, but I am willing to bet that 95% of construction workers in New Mexico, California, Texas, etc. are illegal immigrants. That's a burden for you, so the "necessary evil" concept is not THAT far away, isn't it?

Anyways man, I really really like the US and its people, true Americans are among the nicer people I have ever met, and I hear everything you say.

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USAMAN
post Jul 13 2008, 01:00 AM
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You would be supprised. During the summer you will find nearly as many Illegal workers as legal. Minnesota is a sanctuary city, they rarely if ever anything to deport illegals. I do want this to be clear as well.
Immigrants= welcome.
Illegal Immigrants= go home.

Our politicians are having a problem wraping there minds around the definition of the word illegal. It's kinda like what is the definiation of the word "is" defense that Clinton used.

P.S.
Drink apple juice, cuz O.J. will kill you....lol

This post has been edited by USAMAN: Jul 13 2008, 01:01 AM


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fatb0t
post Jul 13 2008, 01:20 AM
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USAMAN - Yes, conservative ideals are awesome!
Or they were, I'd say now a days the new form of conservativism which people seem to subscribe to is, neo conservativism. This is where big brother plays a huge role, corporate interests are catered to before the citizen, and all the wealth is held at the top, the constitution has fallen to the way side.

It's upsetting to me, because so many old folks who were ORIGINAL conservatives (no big spending, balanced budget, cut taxes, no government social programs) buy into the neo cons- even though they have vastly different political objectives!

Something is going to happen soon I feel...
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Smikey2006
post Jul 13 2008, 01:56 AM
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i am totally intune with this topic. As a student in canada the government gives me.. well.. not alot, i have to pay tuition and books and all that jazz+ living expenses on a measly part time job because well my degree gets me nothing until im done ( business administration) Each week i get paid like.. nothing to begin with and then i get a ton deducted in income tax's, union dues and any other method of sucking my wallet the government has. Then after putting the remainder into living expenses(so much worse during the school year) and into my education savings( so im not in too much debt after im done school) i am barly left with 20$ to spend on either guitar savings or gas money or just hanging with friends.. work hard for the money.... this is why im a communist(by ideal only)


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USAMAN
post Jul 13 2008, 02:34 AM
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QUOTE (Smikey2006 @ Jul 13 2008, 01:56 AM) *
i am totally intune with this topic. As a student in canada the government gives me.. well.. not alot, i have to pay tuition and books and all that jazz+ living expenses on a measly part time job because well my degree gets me nothing until im done ( business administration) Each week i get paid like.. nothing to begin with and then i get a ton deducted in income tax's, union dues and any other method of sucking my wallet the government has. Then after putting the remainder into living expenses(so much worse during the school year) and into my education savings( so im not in too much debt after im done school) i am barly left with 20$ to spend on either guitar savings or gas money or just hanging with friends.. work hard for the money.... this is why im a communist(by ideal only)


Only one problem ....communism doesnt work.


QUOTE (fatb0t @ Jul 13 2008, 01:20 AM) *
USAMAN - Yes, conservative ideals are awesome!
Or they were, I'd say now a days the new form of conservativism which people seem to subscribe to is, neo conservativism. This is where big brother plays a huge role, corporate interests are catered to before the citizen, and all the wealth is held at the top, the constitution has fallen to the way side.

It's upsetting to me, because so many old folks who were ORIGINAL conservatives (no big spending, balanced budget, cut taxes, no government social programs) buy into the neo cons- even though they have vastly different political objectives!

Something is going to happen soon I feel...


I agree!
One doesnt need to hurt the little guy to make conservative principals work. Free markets are where its at.
When you choose government to do things for you, you choose the biggest monopoly of all. Small government, low taxes, less social programs...TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF....self reliance is where its at. There are people in society that truely need help and should get it ....then there are those many capable souls that will never get it.


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wrk
post Jul 13 2008, 03:05 AM
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QUOTE (USAMAN @ Jul 12 2008, 08:58 PM) *
.....
Thats the type of statement I find personally offensive.
Are you kidding me. Speak for yourself. I've done it all and will continue to to pay my bills. Ive worked very hard for everything I have and I'm proud.

I'd deport all Illegal Immigrants today, afterall they are ILLEGAL. They are not a "necessary evil", they are a burden on society. Maybe then parents would make their lazy spoiled kids would go get a job and put down the xbox controller.

I think just the fact that we are luck enough to be born in a good and secure environment makes us all to some sort of "spoiled kids". To define lesser lucky people as illegal and send them from one day to another back "home", whatever that means in a lot of cases, is for me a good example of how "spoiled" we are!

Everybody have the right to live a better life and it's more or less our task to help as many people we can.

QUOTE (USAMAN @ Jul 13 2008, 02:00 AM) *
Immigrants= welcome.
Illegal Immigrants= go home.

^^
Really, no offense against you or the US ... in france, germany, etc we have the same situation. I just think is a bit more complex then this.


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USAMAN
post Jul 13 2008, 03:09 AM
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QUOTE (wrk @ Jul 13 2008, 03:05 AM) *
I think just the fact that we are luck enough to be born in a good and secure environment makes us all to some sort of "spoiled kids". To define lesser lucky people as illegal and send them from one day to another back "home", whatever that means in a lot of cases, is for me a good example of how "spoiled" we are!

Everybody have the right to live a better life and it's more or less our task to help as many people we can.


^^
Really, no offense against you or the US ... in france, germany, etc we have the same situation. I just think is a bit more complex then this.


There is a legal way to do it in the USA. To cut inline in front of others doing it the right way is wrong. It sure is convient to overlook the word Illegal. I think I'm going to convince myself that robbing a bank is ok cuz I need the money and others were born with more than me............I feel sorry for people as much as the other guy. Illegal is illegal is illegal...you cannot choose which laws you want to follow, it doesnt work that way.


This post has been edited by USAMAN: Jul 13 2008, 03:15 AM


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kahall
post Jul 13 2008, 03:23 AM
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USAMAN, I'm an Ice Cold Conservative as well, and proud of it. I even have the T-shirt. It is one of the best to wear out in public. Thanks for sticking up for our paychecks. Someone has to pay for free stuff. That is all I am going to say here but I could go on and on and on about this.

QUOTE (fatb0t @ Jul 11 2008, 07:49 AM) *
All the illegal immigrants in my country pay no taxes and make technically more than me ultimately! - Very upsetting
(Though I suppose they work much harder)

Let me know your thoughts on this....


Uh, finish the Fence? Spain finished theirs
and do not degrade yourself by thinking anyone works harder. You have a job, you are obviously doing it properly or you would not have it.

This post has been edited by kahall: Jul 13 2008, 03:25 AM


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wrk
post Jul 13 2008, 03:28 AM
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QUOTE (USAMAN @ Jul 13 2008, 04:09 AM) *
There is a legal way to do it in the USA. To cut inline in front of others doing it the right way is wrong. It sure is convient to overlook the word Illegal. I think I'm going to convince myself that robbing a bank is ok cuz I need the money and others were born with more than me............I feel sorry for people as much as the other guy. Illegal is illegal is illegal...you cannot choose which laws you want to follow, it doesnt work that way.


Does illegal always mean it is wrong? To define things as illegal is often easily done, but it doesn't give a solution.

I agree with you in one way or another and its not much different in europe, but i think you know as well how hopeless it is for a lot of people .. even if they do the line. You are sure, that you would just accept for yourself being unlucky if you would be in the same situation? Asking myself, i'm not so sure about this ...



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JuanMV
post Jul 13 2008, 04:19 AM
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QUOTE (kahall @ Jul 12 2008, 11:23 PM) *
Uh, finish the Fence? Spain finished theirs


I don’t think that will happen in the US man… that would bring a lot of political confrontation…not to mention the economic confrontation: as most of the illegal workers are paid off the books, US companies tax evade A LOT of money (around US$ 40 billion per year man). My opinion is that what you should do is strengthen the system. Don’t think that “illegal workers” don’t have documents; they do, only that the documents, as well as the workers, are illegal. And the system sucks. For example, immigration and customs don’t have access to Social Security data, so all the counterfeited identifications can’t be verified. That’s ridiculous man, and you have the right to be against this, because the final costs are paid by US taxpayers. So what happens is that the US taxpayer is in the end subsidizing corporate greed. The free ride is what gets you on your nerves wrk, the free ride man. If you want to stop this, you should ask your congressmen to focus on, for example, making E-Verify mandatory, fine employers who hire fake-documented workers, make a newborn child a citizen only if, for example, one of its parents is (like France, but actually I think that in France both the parents have to be French, is that right wrk?). I don’t know, there are thousands of things you could do to prevent illegal jobs to be there. If there are no jobs for illegal workers, then those illegally in the US will eventually return home.

This post has been edited by JuanMV: Jul 13 2008, 04:21 AM
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USAMAN
post Jul 13 2008, 04:38 AM
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QUOTE (wrk @ Jul 13 2008, 03:28 AM) *
Does illegal always mean it is wrong? To define things as illegal is often easily done, but it doesn't give a solution.

I agree with you in one way or another and its not much different in europe, but i think you know as well how hopeless it is for a lot of people .. even if they do the line. You are sure, that you would just accept for yourself being unlucky if you would be in the same situation? Asking myself, i'm not so sure about this ...


I absolutely would not accept the situation. I would go about changing things the legal way. That is the solution. What the influx of Illegal immigration is going to do is shut the door for everyone. And yes Illegal makes it wrong..always.
We have laws for a reason.

And a country without boarders is no country at all.

This post has been edited by USAMAN: Jul 13 2008, 04:38 AM


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Iron King
post Jul 13 2008, 09:00 AM
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I'm not so sure about the whole loving your country thing. That's a dangerous thing in my mind... leads to wars and a false sense of superiority.

I grew up in Canada, spent 20 years of my life here (and 1 in Spain). I gladly give money to help people and improve living condition, but I can't stand the government and cringe every time I pay taxes. Although I do love my culture, I do not associate that with my country. I'd rather think of myself as a citizen of earth than a citizen of Canada.

There's something special about going around the world, meeting people your country told you to hate, and finding out they are amazing people...

anyway, I don't really feel Canada has been working for me so far and would love to try south western US, but with the way the constitution is being butchered, I think I'll wait a bit first

bit off topic, but thats my two cents
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wrk
post Jul 13 2008, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE (USAMAN @ Jul 13 2008, 05:38 AM) *
I absolutely would not accept the situation. I would go about changing things the legal way. That is the solution. What the influx of Illegal immigration is going to do is shut the door for everyone. And yes Illegal makes it wrong..always.
We have laws for a reason.

And a country without boarders is no country at all.

Yes, i think i would first try as well to change things the legal way, but in the case i realize that my lifetime would run out before any changes can be expected, i would try to go through illegality to make this legal.

I'm not asking to open all boarders and make the whole world one country. I'm not saying ether, that it is ok to ignore laws. My opinion is to have a bit finer categorization approche on topics like that, instead of just building two groups of "legal" and "illegal".

Excuse me, i respect the view you have, but i'm german and if there is one thing i have learned from my previous generation that i can be very quickly by law on the "wrong" side. This makes me maybe a bit over sensible in topics like this, when it comes to categorization and blaming a specific category being responsible for something there are just a part of.



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USAMAN
post Jul 13 2008, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE (wrk @ Jul 13 2008, 11:26 AM) *
Yes, i think i would first try as well to change things the legal way, but in the case i realize that my lifetime would run out before any changes can be expected, i would try to go through illegality to make this legal.

I'm not asking to open all boarders and make the whole world one country. I'm not saying ether, that it is ok to ignore laws. My opinion is to have a bit finer categorization approche on topics like that, instead of just building two groups of "legal" and "illegal".

Excuse me, i respect the view you have, but i'm german and if there is one thing i have learned from my previous generation that i can be very quickly by law on the "wrong" side. This makes me maybe a bit over sensible in topics like this, when it comes to categorization and blaming a specific category being responsible for something there are just a part of.

The only problem i see with what you are saying is that the law does not need to change to make a legal way for them to come here, it already exists and is overlooked. I would perfer that people willing to overlook the law stay where they are.


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