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> This Is Wrong And Someone Should Speak Up!
Daniel Robinson
post Jul 27 2008, 03:50 AM
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When dealing with things like this on a philosophical level it always stirs up emotions.

I am generally tolerant of most things, but there does come a time when you have to draw a line in the sand. The addage of "Live and let live". I belive it to only a small extent. I believe a person has the right to live how they want as long as it doesnt hurt others physically or emotionally.

This is not judging people per se, it is defining what is hurtful and what is not. Sitting on the fence is not the answer, indecision and Live and let live policy is what allows things to spiral out of control.


I think Edmund Burke put it best "The easiest way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

So in that respect the whole idea of Live and let live doesnt hold up. People need to have deep conviction of their own values and need to take a stand against things they perceive to be wrong. Not just simply stand on the sidelines and ignore it.


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sigma7
post Jul 27 2008, 03:56 AM
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QUOTE (Daniel Robinson @ Jul 26 2008, 10:50 PM) *
When dealing with things like this on a philosophical level it always stirs up emotions.

I am generally tolerant of most things, but there does come a time when you have to draw a line in the sand. The addage of "Live and let live". I belive it to only a small extent. I believe a person has the right to live how they want as long as it doesnt hurt others physically or emotionally.

This is not judging people per se, it is defining what is hurtful and what is not. Sitting on the fence is not the answer, indecision and Live and let live policy is what allows things to spiral out of control.


I think Edmund Burke put it best "The easiest way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

So in that respect the whole idea of Live and let live doesnt hold up. People need to have deep conviction of their own values and need to take a stand against things they perceive to be wrong. Not just simply stand on the sidelines and ignore it.


Daniel


I agree. In the words of Dee Snider, "We're not going to take it ...nemore." Haha smile.gif


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FrankW
post Jul 27 2008, 04:40 AM
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The only way to make morons who name their bands after someones' misfortunes to go away, is to not promote them. Don't buy their music, don't download it, don't go to their concerts, don't buy their t-shirts.
Some who name their bands ridiculous things, like 'rotting christ' are aiming for shock value. They quickly disappear when they have no funding. Just don't support them...
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kahall
post Jul 27 2008, 05:41 AM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Jul 26 2008, 10:40 PM) *
The only way to make morons who name their bands after someones' misfortunes to go away, is to not promote them. Don't buy their music, don't download it, don't go to their concerts, don't buy their t-shirts.
Some who name their bands ridiculous things, like 'rotting christ' are aiming for shock value. They quickly disappear when they have no funding. Just don't support them...


Roger that. Rock on...


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stickyfingers
post Jul 27 2008, 09:42 AM
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whoops i completely overlooked this change of statement from rammstein wink.gif

thx for clearing it up for me. how embarrassing tongue.gif

@topic

I don't really care about band names - if i disapprove i just don't support them. I'm totally with Daniel on that subject.


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Marcus Siepen
post Jul 27 2008, 12:43 PM
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there is this stupid saying "any press is good press", so a lot of bands try to provoke as much as possible, and in most cases it works. If a provoking band name is all you have to offer though your carreer still won't last very long I guess wink.gif


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blindwillie
post Jul 28 2008, 12:53 PM
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QUOTE (Daniel Robinson @ Jul 27 2008, 04:50 AM) *
When dealing with things like this on a philosophical level it always stirs up emotions.

I am generally tolerant of most things, but there does come a time when you have to draw a line in the sand. The addage of "Live and let live". I belive it to only a small extent. I believe a person has the right to live how they want as long as it doesnt hurt others physically or emotionally.

This is not judging people per se, it is defining what is hurtful and what is not. Sitting on the fence is not the answer, indecision and Live and let live policy is what allows things to spiral out of control.


I think Edmund Burke put it best "The easiest way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

So in that respect the whole idea of Live and let live doesnt hold up. People need to have deep conviction of their own values and need to take a stand against things they perceive to be wrong. Not just simply stand on the sidelines and ignore it.


Daniel

To continue being philosophical and taking that reasoning to an extent too. I'm not using "you" as a reference to you, just generally speaking.

What defines a "good man"?
Your moral? He's moral? My moral? That he acts with violence when he think's it's time to stand up for what's right? Drawn to the extent it have to come to violence because you can't reason everybody to think like you do.
Who should have the right to use violence to resolv a conflict? Everone? A selected few? Who pick those few? Political leaders? Religous leaders? The richest dudes? The poorest?

When moral values differ, who judges which one is right? What gives you the right to decide that your moral values are right and he's are wrong?
"Drawing a line" could well start a world war. Conflicts, armed conflicts too, often start out of different moral standards and "drawn lines". Conflicts aren't necessarily bad, but I would say armed ones usually are.

"I believe a person has the right to live how they want as long as it doesn't hurt others physically or emotionally."
Yepp. So do I. To an extent. Everyone have to give in and be a little "hurt" because my freedom will surely contradict your freedom sooner or later. And I call that "Live and let live".
I would change that line simply to "I believe a people should have the right to live their life in freedom in whichever way they choose." Or something in the line of that Emphasising "should" because it's the ultimate, an unreachable goal. Noone can have total freedom, whether it hurts others or not. As long as we live in a society we have to have rules and share and contribute. That also includes not limiting others freedom by forcing my freedom upon them.

Freedom also brings up another philosofical issue.
Has a person right to his own life and body? To do with whatever he please?

I have to go, didn't have time to complete it the way I wanted. Hope it didn't all turn out jibberish.


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Daniel Robinson
post Jul 28 2008, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (blindwillie @ Jul 28 2008, 07:53 AM) *
To continue being philosophical and taking that reasoning to an extent too. I'm not using "you" as a reference to you, just generally speaking.

What defines a "good man"?
Your moral? He's moral? My moral? That he acts with violence when he think's it's time to stand up for what's right? Drawn to the extent it have to come to violence because you can't reason everybody to think like you do.
Who should have the right to use violence to resolv a conflict? Everone? A selected few? Who pick those few? Political leaders? Religous leaders? The richest dudes? The poorest?

When moral values differ, who judges which one is right? What gives you the right to decide that your moral values are right and he's are wrong?
"Drawing a line" could well start a world war. Conflicts, armed conflicts too, often start out of different moral standards and "drawn lines". Conflicts aren't necessarily bad, but I would say armed ones usually are.

"I believe a person has the right to live how they want as long as it doesn't hurt others physically or emotionally."
Yepp. So do I. To an extent. Everyone have to give in and be a little "hurt" because my freedom will surely contradict your freedom sooner or later. And I call that "Live and let live".
I would change that line simply to "I believe a people should have the right to live their life in freedom in whichever way they choose." Or something in the line of that Emphasising "should" because it's the ultimate, an unreachable goal. Noone can have total freedom, whether it hurts others or not. As long as we live in a society we have to have rules and share and contribute. That also includes not limiting others freedom by forcing my freedom upon them.

Freedom also brings up another philosofical issue.
Has a person right to his own life and body? To do with whatever he please?

I have to go, didn't have time to complete it the way I wanted. Hope it didn't all turn out jibberish.



I agree on your point, it was not my intent to be on a soapbox or anything. Certainly there are things in this world that are a grey area. But regardless of where someone says they get their moral compass from be it Religion, Family, Government, or just nature even. There are things inside you that tell you the difference between right and wrong. And back to the original topic that started this post.

Is there anything about what they are doing that feels repugnent, or even a little seedy to you? Of course if you don't i can't convince you. But if you do. Than obviously something, or someone instilled a value system in you that says this kind of behaviour is hurtful and wrong.

On your point of living in a free society and something having to be tolerated i agree to a certain extent, the problem here is a fundmentally deeper problem and that is determining absolute truth, which as humans we have a narrow view of. Mathmatics, for example can determine absolutes with a certainty. So we have to asks ourselves if one person is hurting another, who is really wrong. That question i can't answer. You are correct though that wars can be started over this, and it comes back to the fundemental human flaw, who is absolutely an unequivocalbly right.

Daniel


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Jul 28 2008, 01:36 PM
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The band name doesn't offend me and you shouldn't let it offend you. They are probably doing it to raise awareness of the tragedy to make sure it doesn't happen again and paying respect to those who died that day. Plus there are other bands with Columbine in the title. For all you know the band might have had friends die in the tragedy.

Some people are way too easily offended.


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wrk
post Jul 28 2008, 02:33 PM
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In my opinion the problem is not the name people choose for their band, it's the interpretation of it.

To use any tragedies as influences will always be a borderline. People have different ways and reasons to deal with those things. I agree that it is often used to simply provoke or get publicity, but before judging the intentions of someone, based only on my own interpretation, before i would like to hear the arguments of the band, artist etc .. maybe they have a message and it's convincing.

What drives people to commit something like the "Columbine Massacre"? ... the question why others stop before and don't do it can help to find some answers. Maybe they found early enough another, less violent way to deal with their anger and emotions.

We expect from musicians to be honest in their music, but when it gets uncomfortable we put them in the publicity corner. Isolate them even more .. to believe in an happy world with happy people and ignore the existence of these kind of emotions is dangerous in my opinion.

Maybe i'm completely wrong .. these are just some thoughts going on in my mind by following this topic, which is a good one i really have to say !!









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SonofDestiny
post Jul 28 2008, 02:48 PM
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Boring music, ugly bandmembers. Why am I not suprised...


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Jul 28 2008, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jul 28 2008, 02:48 PM) *
Boring music, ugly bandmembers. Why am I not suprised...

Sounds like my band biggrin.gif


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TreyDeschamp
post Jul 28 2008, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (fire @ Jul 26 2008, 11:48 AM) *
well - a lot of bands have "violent" names.

RAMMSTEIN is named after a show with airplanes in germany where some planes crashed down and the pilotes died

Children of Bodom - the name comes from a murder close where 4 children were killed horribly and one survived heavily injured - and this child can't remember anything!!

so i think its maybe stupid to call you band like this but - you have to decide youself IMO


cheers


The Children of Bodom point is a good one. the thing is I love that band. Actually it's named after the Lake Bodom murders and they call themselves "Children of Bodom" because they're from around there. Thats just what I heard at least. Like I said I think the only reason this is troubling me is just because I've studied up on Columbine and actually seen documentaries of the families of the victims. I dont know, I guess its just hard to think that someone could try and make money off of a name like that. But then again you have your points like with other bads such as CoB and Rammstein.


QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Jul 28 2008, 07:36 AM) *
The band name doesn't offend me and you shouldn't let it offend you. They are probably doing it to raise awareness of the tragedy to make sure it doesn't happen again and paying respect to those who died that day. Plus there are other bands with Columbine in the title. For all you know the band might have had friends die in the tragedy.

Some people are way too easily offended.


I usually dont judge people on looks but the way these guys look is disturbing and not a way I would want to be honored in.


QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jul 28 2008, 08:48 AM) *
Boring music, ugly bandmembers. Why am I not suprised...


haha

QUOTE (wrk @ Jul 28 2008, 08:33 AM) *
In my opinion the problem is not the name people choose for their band, it's the interpretation of it.

To use any tragedies as influences will always be a borderline. People have different ways and reasons to deal with those things. I agree that it is often used to simply provoke or get publicity, but before judging the intentions of someone, based only on my own interpretation, before i would like to hear the arguments of the band, artist etc .. maybe they have a message and it's convincing.

What drives people to commit something like the "Columbine Massacre"? ... the question why others stop before and don't do it can help to find some answers. Maybe they found early enough another, less violent way to deal with their anger and emotions.

We expect from musicians to be honest in their music, but when it gets uncomfortable we put them in the publicity corner. Isolate them even more .. to believe in an happy world with happy people and ignore the existence of these kind of emotions is dangerous in my opinion.

Maybe i'm completely wrong .. these are just some thoughts going on in my mind by following this topic, which is a good one i really have to say !!



Very nice point!


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blindwillie
post Jul 29 2008, 09:51 AM
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QUOTE (Daniel Robinson @ Jul 28 2008, 02:10 PM) *
I agree on your point, it was not my intent to be on a soapbox or anything. Certainly there are things in this world that are a grey area. But regardless of where someone says they get their moral compass from be it Religion, Family, Government, or just nature even. There are things inside you that tell you the difference between right and wrong. And back to the original topic that started this post.

Is there anything about what they are doing that feels repugnent, or even a little seedy to you? Of course if you don't i can't convince you. But if you do. Than obviously something, or someone instilled a value system in you that says this kind of behaviour is hurtful and wrong.

On your point of living in a free society and something having to be tolerated i agree to a certain extent, the problem here is a fundmentally deeper problem and that is determining absolute truth, which as humans we have a narrow view of. Mathmatics, for example can determine absolutes with a certainty. So we have to asks ourselves if one person is hurting another, who is really wrong. That question i can't answer. You are correct though that wars can be started over this, and it comes back to the fundemental human flaw, who is absolutely an unequivocalbly right.

Daniel

I agree. We're not that far from each other after all I think smile.gif


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