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> Diminished., Modes?
kjutte
post Jul 28 2008, 03:34 AM
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Are you familiar with the diminished modes?

If so, can you talk about them? smile.gif

Also I would like how you would use the locrian mode?
should I make a chordprogression totally in diminished chords for it, or Cdim Dbmaj etc?

This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 28 2008, 03:36 AM
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Muris Varajic
post Jul 28 2008, 11:24 AM
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Sure,diminished scale also well know as a 8 notes scale. smile.gif

This scale,Locrian as well and some other similar scales
aren't material to get everything from,
like per example major or minor scales.
When I say to get everything from
I think of chord progression and steady root chord.

Locrian per instance,
you can play B Locrian over Bdim chord
over and over and have Bdim as a root
but sooner or latter you'll end up in Am key
or C key,our ears/brains just aren't used to
dim as a root,that's all.

Diminished is something else tho,
with 8 tones and whole-half tone construction
it's used in Jazz a lot over certain chords to get
jazzy vibe but it's not "a scale" that we're used to,
more like a tool to get specific sounding licks.

And you can create chord progression using
whatever you like,even dim chords only.
Problem is,you'll miss root chord with perfect 5th,
just as I said earlier. smile.gif


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fatb0t
post Jul 28 2008, 01:41 PM
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Is this the idea of jazz fusion stuff? When the chord progression goes from Am (and the aeolian/dorian scale) to Bdim (and locrian scale)?

Basically what I mean is as the chord changes so does the scale?
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Muris Varajic
post Jul 28 2008, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE (fatb0t @ Jul 28 2008, 02:41 PM) *
Is this the idea of jazz fusion stuff? When the chord progression goes from Am (and the aeolian/dorian scale) to Bdim (and locrian scale)?

Basically what I mean is as the chord changes so does the scale?


No,it would still be in key of Am, Bdim is just a chord from Am scale,
that's why some people are making mistake when say
"I play Am scale over Am chord,and then B Locrian over Bdim(Bm7/-5)"
It's all in key of Am,Am is the root and so is Am scale.

But if you take A Dorian as a root and then you play B Locrian
over B dim then you are changing one note,
F# from A Dorian becomes F in B Locrian,
Tho there's a "problem",
you cannot find Bdim chord in A Dorian. smile.gif


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Jul 28 2008, 06:29 PM
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Theory confuses me lol. I never know what notes can go over a chord and sound good. Please tell me if what I say is true or false or kind of true. You can only play A, C#, E, G#, B an octave above. So 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th over an A Major chord. Is this just pure nonesense that I've said? What notes in an A major scale will sound wrong over an A major chord?


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fatb0t
post Jul 28 2008, 06:30 PM
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So as long as the key of the song does not change, you should not change modes correct?
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Muris Varajic
post Jul 28 2008, 06:34 PM
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QUOTE (fatb0t @ Jul 28 2008, 07:30 PM) *
So as long as the key of the song does not change, you should not change modes correct?


Yes,cause all those modes we are talking about
are already in root scale. smile.gif

QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Jul 28 2008, 07:29 PM) *
You can only play A, C#, E, G#, B an octave above. So 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th over an A Major chord. Is this just pure nonesense that I've said? What notes in an A major scale will sound wrong over an A major chord?



Those notes are working just fine over Am chord
cause they are all part of A scale.
Now,F# is also part of A scale but it doesn't sound
that "stable" over A chord as note C# per example,
cause C# is included in A chord as well.
So,none of the notes from A scale would sound "wrong" over A chord,
it's just that some would have more stability then other,
like A ,C# and E notes per example. smile.gif


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fatb0t
post Jul 28 2008, 06:37 PM
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So when you change chords to say B Dim, the chord in relation (B Dim in this case) to the Am scale will give it it's flavor - thus eliminating the needs to change to a different mode?

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Muris Varajic
post Jul 28 2008, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (fatb0t @ Jul 28 2008, 07:37 PM) *
So when you change chords to say B Dim, the chord in relation (B Dim in this case) to the Am scale will give it it's flavor - thus eliminating the needs to change to a different mode?


Yes,you don't have to say it's B Locrian cause it's part of Am scale.
But if you're playing something different than B Locrian over
B dim chord then you're changing scale/mode of course. smile.gif


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fatb0t
post Jul 28 2008, 08:07 PM
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One more question then I promise I'm done! Say you want the locrian to REALLY stand out - have a unique sound. How do you utilize the modes to accentuate the chord in the back ground?
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kjutte
post Jul 28 2008, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 28 2008, 12:24 PM) *
Sure,diminished scale also well know as a 8 notes scale. smile.gif

This scale,Locrian as well and some other similar scales
aren't material to get everything from,
like per example major or minor scales.
When I say to get everything from
I think of chord progression and steady root chord.

Locrian per instance,
you can play B Locrian over Bdim chord
over and over and have Bdim as a root
but sooner or latter you'll end up in Am key
or C key,our ears/brains just aren't used to
dim as a root,that's all.

Diminished is something else tho,
with 8 tones and whole-half tone construction
it's used in Jazz a lot over certain chords to get
jazzy vibe but it's not "a scale" that we're used to,
more like a tool to get specific sounding licks.

And you can create chord progression using
whatever you like,even dim chords only.
Problem is,you'll miss root chord with perfect 5th,
just as I said earlier. smile.gif


I know, like the shawn lane stuff. How do I make any decent chordprogressions from this 8tone scale. an example please! biggrin.gif
And Btw, I ment the modes of the diminished scale. I thought since it has 8 notes, it must have 8 modes, with each a special feel. but maybe not, since it's fully diminished?

This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 29 2008, 12:47 AM
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kjutte
post Jul 29 2008, 01:08 AM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Jul 28 2008, 07:29 PM) *
Theory confuses me lol. I never know what notes can go over a chord and sound good. Please tell me if what I say is true or false or kind of true. You can only play A, C#, E, G#, B an octave above. So 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th over an A Major chord. Is this just pure nonesense that I've said? What notes in an A major scale will sound wrong over an A major chord?


Mate, the Amaj is taken from the Amaj scale. they can't go wrong. you can make a crazy chord with lots of octaves and notes, aslong as they're in the scale. smile.gif

Edit:
what I said jsut now is not really correct. A maj could be A mixolydian, A lydian and A ionian.
However, none of the notes of A maj, lyd, or mixo will sound bad over Amajor.

This is because it's a major mode. Their criterias are met.

Edit again:
so anyway, the answer to your question; none of Amaj scale's notes will sound bad over it. Nor lyd, or mixo.

QUOTE (fatb0t @ Jul 28 2008, 09:07 PM) *
One more question then I promise I'm done! Say you want the locrian to REALLY stand out - have a unique sound. How do you utilize the modes to accentuate the chord in the back ground?


By keeping it minor and diminished.

Idim IIImin Idim VIImin for example. OR you could just do the dim in different octaves and stuff.

Example Im7/b5. basically means R m3 b5 m7. stuff like that.

And to really make it unique, you have to play the weird intervals that it has.

Edit for language - Smells

This post has been edited by Smells: Jul 30 2008, 12:17 PM
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Muris Varajic
post Jul 29 2008, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 28 2008, 09:39 PM) *
I know, like the shawn lane stuff. How do I make any decent chordprogressions from this 8tone scale. an example please! biggrin.gif
And Btw, I ment the modes of the diminished scale. I thought since it has 8 notes, it must have 8 modes, with each a special feel. but maybe not, since it's fully diminished?


It has 8 modes I guess but it's not often to use them as a modes,
like we use modes from harmonic minor per example.
Same problem with chord progression,
you can play any chords you want made by notes
of dim scale but it won't sound "descent",
doesn't fit our ears,try it and you'll see.
And the file you uploaded doesn't tell a lot tho.
There is no chord is background to shows the root
so it could be piece of anything,a major or minor scale. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Muris Varajic: Jul 29 2008, 08:58 AM


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kjutte
post Jul 29 2008, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 29 2008, 09:52 AM) *
It has 8 modes I guess but it's not often to use them as a modes,
like we use modes from harmonic minor per example.
Same problem with chord progression,
you can play any chords you want made by notes
of dim scale but it won't sound "descent",
doesn't fit our ears,try it and you'll see.
And the file you uploaded doesn't tell a lot tho.
There is no chord is background to shows the root
so it could be piece of anything,a major or minor scale. smile.gif


Thanks smile.gif

It was just a way of showing how to choose intervals for Locrian.

Edit:
Is this take better Muris?

Edim Fmin.

Edit again:
I just saw taht it should be Edim Dmin, but who cares, lol. Or even Dmin A min...

This post has been edited by kjutte: Jul 29 2008, 03:42 PM
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Muris Varajic
post Jul 29 2008, 04:56 PM
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Well it's probably better since you have some chords
in backing but as you can hear,the result ain't pretty at all.
That's why this mode is never in use as a root.
I could have given you some similar examples
but it won't help a lot since you know the notes
and every progression you come up with
would sound just like your,wicked. smile.gif


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kjutte
post Jul 29 2008, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 29 2008, 05:56 PM) *
Well it's probably better since you have some chords
in backing but as you can hear,the result ain't pretty at all.
That's why this mode is never in use as a root.
I could have given you some similar examples
but it won't help a lot since you know the notes
and every progression you come up with
would sound just like your,wicked. smile.gif


I actually think it was kind of cool. very different. I never tried anything locrian before smile.gif
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Muris Varajic
post Jul 29 2008, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Jul 29 2008, 07:16 PM) *
I actually think it was kind of cool. very different. I never tried anything locrian before smile.gif


It IS different,
problem is that mainstream population doesn't like it.
But if you like it then go for it,why not!! smile.gif


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kjutte
post Jul 30 2008, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 29 2008, 07:28 PM) *
It IS different,
problem is that mainstream population doesn't like it.
But if you like it then go for it,why not!! smile.gif


Thanks for all advices once again man biggrin.gif
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