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> Developing Speed, Learn how to play blazing fast!
Kristofer Dahl
post Aug 7 2008, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE (Marcus Lavendell @ Aug 7 2008, 03:30 PM) *
Yes, If one is happy with Eric Johnson speed then there's no need to do this.

But for those who want to play fast my idea was that we should still continue practicing slow. But then occationaly go for a really fast bpm smile.gif


Yes that is a really interesting way of practicing - I haven't really applied that before. I am going to try it ! biggrin.gif


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Chris Evans
post Aug 7 2008, 04:10 PM
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I find that breaking out of the mould and trying to play way faster than is achievable really helpful from time to time, after a few (failed) attempts at a much higher speed I go back to a comfortable speed and find it kind of slow, which in turn then seems to make it a whole lot easier to play, I find I can build up speed on certain licks a lot quicker doing it this way.


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fkalich
post Aug 7 2008, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Aug 7 2008, 08:11 AM) *
Very interesting topic!

I agree that if you don't have your mind set on speed you will never get to those Rusty Cooley speeds.

However - if you are happy with getting up to Eric Johnson speed - then I wonder if "practicing at slow speed and articulate" for years and years perhaps might actually do the trick (of course you need to somewhat think of not doing enormous hand motions).

I can't tell though - because I definitely had my mind set on speed when starting out. Now my practicing focuses on fixing tone-flaws that comes from me having pushed the speed too much.

Also I find that even though my maximum speed has decreased the last years - I think my speed playing might sound faster because I am getting more articulate. And that's an interesting phenomenon!

edit - I think Paul Gilbert is an example of a guitarist who sounds "alot faster than he is" because his picking is so extremely aggressive and articulate! (I love his picking!)


Took me over a year and a half to understand this. I once timed Gilbert btw, and yes, he was playing at a slower pace than it sounded like, because great quality sounds fast, even when not played all that fast.

I uploaded a research paper awhile back the explained how the brain establishes the ability to play music. What Kris says is supported by that, what some others have said is not. In a nutshell, your brain establishes neurologically what you put into it, if you play crappy, you establish a crappy network of neural receptors. No, you don't play crappy and somehow back into quality that way. You may get fast, but your play quality will be necessarily compromised. And you will have to undo the damage. That is, reestablish a quality network of neural receptors, and remove the crappy one you put in place. And that will be done as Kris says, playing at high quality, and only pushing to the extent where you can maintain that.

Or I guess you can just work on your pod settings, and the backing track, who will know the difference if you get that right? Sort of like a brunette dying here hair blond, or plastic surgery. Or I could stick a sock in my pants, I had a nephew who did that.
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Déjà vu
post Aug 7 2008, 05:55 PM
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I heard Shawn Lane say something like this a while ago... That certainly helped me a lot! This helps me reconsider that concept again! Thanks!
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fkalich
post Aug 7 2008, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Aug 7 2008, 10:03 AM) *
Yes that is a really interesting way of practicing - I haven't really applied that before. I am going to try it ! biggrin.gif


Marcus adds things that nobody here add to the site. You can learn a lot from Marcus. I don't agree on this one.

I think one should play fast, but find things that you can play fast that where you are technically capable of doing so and still maintaining quality.

I mean, you need to learn to tremolo pick well, and to move your hands quickly. And you can really zip out those easy 3 note per string AP runs. But technically difficult stuff, nope, been there, done that. Not going back.
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Kristofer Dahl
post Aug 7 2008, 05:58 PM
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@fkalich Yes that is the the idea! But I think Marcus would recommend the exact same way of doing it - but the idea is to try once in a while with the too-fast tempo to give the hand/body/brain an impression of what the goal is!


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Marcus Lavendell
post Aug 7 2008, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Aug 7 2008, 06:58 PM) *
@fkalich Yes that is the the idea! But I think Marcus would recommend the exact same way of doing it - but the idea is to try once in a while with the too-fast tempo to give the hand/body/brain an impression of what the goal is!

Yes, that's what I mean!

It's not about only practicing at faster speeds. Definitely not!


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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Aug 7 2008, 06:17 PM
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This is interesting:


I dont know if I agree or disagree.
However, I feel like both ways are efficient in there own way and Im almost postive that as much precise and slow practice that Eric Johnson did to get where he is today, there must have been some times when he pushed himself in some way and "Raised the Bar" as Marcus mentioned in the first post.

As for most Shredders, the technique and speed development seems pretty the same.
Slow and Steady wins the race.
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fkalich
post Aug 7 2008, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Aug 7 2008, 11:58 AM) *
@fkalich Yes that is the the idea! But I think Marcus would recommend the exact same way of doing it - but the idea is to try once in a while with the too-fast tempo to give the hand/body/brain an impression of what the goal is!


probably so. forum posts can be a bit sloppy, at least mine can. probably we pretty much agree.
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Fsgdjv
post Aug 7 2008, 06:36 PM
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This is actually interesting. I've basically never pushed speed, and on the other hand, I play really slow aswell. Allthough, I remember one evening where I had been whining about how slow I was playing. And then, I got a great suggestion from our allmighty mr France (Gen). He just told me to try to play it faster, and not really think about being completely relaxed and just go for it. I had been struggling with 125 bpm sixteenth notes that day, I raised the speed on the metronome to 160 bm and played that relatively clean. So yeah, I think playing crazy fast once in a while can be great, and I should probably do it more often, I haven't donce it since then and I'm still at waaaaaay slower speeds than sexteenth notes at 160, but I definetly think there's a point in doing this.


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fkalich
post Aug 7 2008, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (Marcus Lavendell @ Aug 7 2008, 12:11 PM) *
Yes, that's what I mean!

It's not about only practicing at faster speeds. Definitely not!


after many many too many college courses, I can say this, it is easy for Teachers to forget some times how dopey students can be. I was just reminding you of that.

You see a lot of guys upload things, and say two things. (1) I apologize for not being fast enough. (2) I apologize for the mistakes.

I think when I see that "slow down". For example, take your etude 1. Beautiful piece. But that opening and the ending, I can only play great quality at about 100. I can get thought it at 120, but not good quality. Other parts I can go faster at good quality. But the whole piece, not more than 100. The weakest link determines it. If I go faster, it is on the parts that I can do that on, or I break the difficult part into smaller pieces and go faster on the little pieces faster. I definitely push speed, but I judiciously find places where I can do that. And it sounds like you concur.

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Marcus Lavendell
post Aug 7 2008, 06:44 PM
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It's perfectly ok fkalich, you don't have to apologize. You just put some spice on this thread, that's all biggrin.gif

Thanks for the comment on the etude, btw smile.gif

This post has been edited by Marcus Lavendell: Aug 7 2008, 06:53 PM


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Henry Dietzel
post Aug 7 2008, 06:46 PM
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First off awesome topic Marcus. smile.gif I have been battling through tendonitis and unfotunately I think it's now coming back worse. Even before this happened I got to a point like Smurkas and couldn't break that magical barrier. When trying to play anything fast it was not only difficult on my hands but difficult on my brain to increase speed and think ahead. Everything I have read from this thread has been extremely helpful in preparing for this challenge.

Also, thanks Smurkas for the article link. I am just about to read through it now. biggrin.gif


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Jeff
post Aug 7 2008, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Aug 7 2008, 08:11 AM) *
However - if you are happy with getting up to Eric Johnson speed -


ohmy.gif OH H*LL YEAH MAN! Sign me up for EJ speed! Heck, I'll take 1/2 EJ Speed and leave with a sh*t eating grin! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


Good advice Marcus. I'll set my metronome to 40 BPM which would be twice my speed! ohmy.gif I'll be pushing Vai territory by the time I finish lunch.

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Oxac
post Aug 7 2008, 07:04 PM
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everywhere I look I find this misconception. There's Speed and there's accuracy. Speed is in your physique, how strong your muscles are etc. That can't be achieved by playing slow. Though accuracy can.

Playing insanely fast increased your strength and therefore your maximum capability, playing slow on the other hand raise your minimum level of playing.


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coffeeman
post Aug 7 2008, 07:16 PM
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This is an aswesome advice Marcus , I've been aplaying this for a while now, and I think is very important to tell zour brain where you want to go, if you don't know how fast you want play how are you going to make it someday, Im not saying zou shoud practice at speeds where you cant play just show your brain every once in a while where you want to go.


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TheOldOnes
post Aug 7 2008, 07:32 PM
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Coincidently, I have been putting this to the test in the last week because I was stalling in some lessons where I getting frustrated with the way I was playing partciularly with my tone and timing - so I jacked up those lesson by about 20% and found I had to really up my concentration to play them decently. Then, going back to my more confortable speeds, I felt much more relaxed and in tune with the music rather than focusing on playing - consequently, my tone and timing improved immensely.
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leedbreak
post Aug 7 2008, 09:16 PM
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Another great topic at GMC, I love this place. Truth be known I got my head bit of by an instructor here, that is not here now, I won’t say any names. But he always said it was a waste of time to try to play fast before you work up click by click all the way up, taking at least 5 years to do so.


I am finding there is some truth in this but you must always push yourself to go faster. If faster is your goal. I think I used the word “force” and he got on me for that too, but that is the key.


I recently purchase Guitar speed trainer and am finding it to be the best tool I have ever had for my fast technique. I took the time to enter some parts of my favorite GMC lessons, which took awhile. But now that they are in there I can set the speed just below my break point. You can set the speed curve to take you just past your break point and then back down. The coming back down helps me more than going up did. Since I am building muscles by that time. It is like being on you third set of ten reps at the gym. If you have ever done that it sure feels great.

Every GMC lesson that I am using GST on are up at least 7 BPM since Monday and my basic sweeping is up by 20 or more. It is a revelation for me.


Unlike GP5’s speed trainer you can set this curve to go up and back down or have it hold at any speed you would like. The most important part is you can tell what speed you are currently at just by looking at the screen. You can not do that using GP5 speed trainer, I always hated that.


Long before I found this program I used the terms walking verses running. I have posted many times in the forum about it, saying that fast picking and slow picking are not the same movement. Just as walking and running are different. They mention that in the GST lesson plan. wink.gif


But you do need many hours of walking before you can run, And if you can not walk perfectly then you can't run either.


Now, I am sure we are all sarcastic saying take it from 100 to 300 if 100 is your top speed. But I do believe you have to attempt 105 - 110 even 120 to ever go faster than the 100.

GL All

QUOTE (Gus @ Aug 7 2008, 09:00 AM) *
Some time ago, someone posted a thread about a software to help on speed.

The curve I saw on the software is exactly what you explained in words, Marcus.

A practice session should go over the comfortable speed, up to totally impossible speed and then slowly down. When going down on speed it will look much easier then when increasing it.... ohmy.gif


http://www.guitarspeed.com/


This post has been edited by leedbreak: Aug 7 2008, 09:08 PM


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superize
post Aug 7 2008, 09:53 PM
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Some great tips here guys......

I have tried a few time play up to a tempo i cant play good and when i get back to comfortble speed it feels kinda slow.... I havent used this as much but i will certenly try this more often.


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Bogdan Radovic
post Aug 7 2008, 10:00 PM
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Excellent approach Marcus! Its important to try things even if can't play them right at that time...That way you will know what is that effort like.

This post has been edited by Bogdan Radovic: Aug 7 2008, 10:01 PM


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