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> Getting Out Of Economy And Into Alternate !
Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Aug 18 2008, 04:04 PM
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For along time I thought I was playing alternate picking but in reality I was playing economy.
Ive been trying to correct this problem for awhile but it keeps on bitting me butt when I least expect it to !

When I try to do strictly Up Down Up Down Up Down Or Down Up Down Up Down Up

I get lost amongst what is down and what is up .
And when playing improv. I often fall back on the economy "crutch" to play fast licks and I know its killing me as a player but I just dont know what to do ! I have made numerous topics getting advice on this but Im just so lost when It comes to my picking.

When playing alternate picking I often use a "double down or a double up " because im so used to that motion.



HELP ! mellow.gif


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kyldeee
post Aug 18 2008, 04:16 PM
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I've had the same problem, and I'm not really gotten rid of it completely, but Muris' Upstroke Focus lesson has helped me alot with this smile.gif


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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Aug 18 2008, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (kyldeee @ Aug 18 2008, 07:16 AM) *
I've had the same problem, and I'm not really gotten rid of it completely, but Muris' Upstroke Focus lesson has helped me alot with this smile.gif



You mean the lesson helps get rid of the "Double Strokes "
?


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DeepRoots
post Aug 18 2008, 04:39 PM
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This is exactly what happened to me when i was a begginner! This is why i wish i had a guitar teacher... mad.gif

Now and then, i feel that economy picking slips in, but this is mostly in my phrasing. I figure this is cool as i only want scary alternate picking chops for the scary speed runs.

So- how i managed to get out of it was a combination of the classic PG string change lick and also practising my 3 note per string scales using AP.

I made a GP5 file quickly for you to show the PG-style string changing licks:
Attached File  AP.gp5 ( 2.07K ) Number of downloads: 125


These patterns took up the majority of my practise time for a long while- few months unfortunately. Practise it across all strings- don't even bother changing the fingering to keep in key- just use the same position and fretting pattern on all string sets. We're concentrating on picking here- not making music.

Next when i heard the word "scale" and figured i should be practising them. I started going straight up and straight down this A minor pattern-

stopping every time i made a mistake in the picking. Which was just about every 5 or so strokes tongue.gif I made alot of mistakes, would stop, start again, concentrating on that picking hand! Atleast now you know what you should be doing- that upstroke on the next string is probably the challenge for you, yes?

Next- try and apply those AP licks to that 3nps scale, changing the fingering so that its all in key. This part is taking you from alternate disaster to alternate competency.

So licks aside..some advice...relearning a forgotten technique is relatively easy, learning a new technique is pretty tricky....correcting a technique like you and I have had to attempt- that takes hard work, concentration and commitment. You have to be really vigilant with your picking hand- is it your number one priority at the moment? (like it was for me). If so then allocate the right amount of time for it. It was normal for me to be playing these same licks for 1-2 hours at a time, sometimes before breakfast and before bed.

Unfortunately it is hard work- but in my experience completely doable. I had the exact same problem as you- but it looks like i was lucky the second time when i decided to practise these things (as opposed to the initial mess-up of trying to immitate what guys on youtube were doing but explaining poorly, YJM was the chief of what messed up my picking!, i honestly thought he said alternate picking was what economy is).

This is about the best advice i can give- as it is exactly what i did, good luck man biggrin.gif
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kyldeee
post Aug 18 2008, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Aug 18 2008, 04:32 PM) *
You mean the lesson helps get rid of the "Double Strokes "
?

By Double stroke, do you mean when u for i.e play a descending lick and you have just played the upper string ( lets say lower E) with a downstroke and continue with a downstroke on the next string ( A string ), although you should start with a upstroke... did I get it right huh.gif Economy picking....

This post has been edited by kyldeee: Aug 18 2008, 04:45 PM


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seagull
post Aug 18 2008, 04:45 PM
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Well, you shouldn't be down about using economy picking! It's not like it's something that kills your playing. You should practice both economy and alternate picking, but the trick is to KNOW when you are using which and WHY.

So my advice for you is to lay of the economy and practice slowly on alternate picking, so that you can get used to the movement of alternating. You don't have to play anything, just pick the strings using strict up-down-up-down-up motions. And really pay attention that you are using that motion only and don't fall into economy again.

When you have practiced the motion long enough to be comfortable with it, the you can use this exercise:
Start with your finger on the low E-string on any fret, and just continue cromatically like if you start from the 5th fret,

E ----5-6-7-8

and then continue on the A-string

A ----5-6-7-8

and on the D-string

D ----5-6-7-8

and so forth and back again from the high e-string

e -----8-7-6-5

B -----8-7-6-5

etc.

Hope this helps. smile.gif

This post has been edited by seagull: Aug 18 2008, 04:46 PM
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Caelumamittendum
post Aug 18 2008, 04:47 PM
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Well... it's not like knowing economy picking is a bad thing. I'm thinking about sticking to economy picking actually. Haha...


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Aug 18 2008, 04:56 PM
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It is because you practiced all these fast licks mostly with EP, but don't worry mate, it si not a big problem at all. The good thing is that you've localized the problem and now you can work on it to make it better. IMO you just need to spend more focused practice on AP runs in order to play them. Check out some alternate picking lessons on GMC, specially Muris ones. He has advanced AP technique and with a couple of tips from those and some dedicated work you can really take AP to the next level.


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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Aug 18 2008, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (DeepRoots @ Aug 18 2008, 07:39 AM) *
This is exactly what happened to me when i was a begginner! This is why i wish i had a guitar teacher... mad.gif

Now and then, i feel that economy picking slips in, but this is mostly in my phrasing. I figure this is cool as i only want scary alternate picking chops for the scary speed runs.

So- how i managed to get out of it was a combination of the classic PG string change lick and also practising my 3 note per string scales using AP.

I made a GP5 file quickly for you to show the PG-style string changing licks:
Attached File  AP.gp5 ( 2.07K ) Number of downloads: 125


These patterns took up the majority of my practise time for a long while- few months unfortunately. Practise it across all strings- don't even bother changing the fingering to keep in key- just use the same position and fretting pattern on all string sets. We're concentrating on picking here- not making music.

Next when i heard the word "scale" and figured i should be practising them. I started going straight up and straight down this A minor pattern-

stopping every time i made a mistake in the picking. Which was just about every 5 or so strokes tongue.gif I made alot of mistakes, would stop, start again, concentrating on that picking hand! Atleast now you know what you should be doing- that upstroke on the next string is probably the challenge for you, yes?

Next- try and apply those AP licks to that 3nps scale, changing the fingering so that its all in key. This part is taking you from alternate disaster to alternate competency.

So licks aside..some advice...relearning a forgotten technique is relatively easy, learning a new technique is pretty tricky....correcting a technique like you and I have had to attempt- that takes hard work, concentration and commitment. You have to be really vigilant with your picking hand- is it your number one priority at the moment? (like it was for me). If so then allocate the right amount of time for it. It was normal for me to be playing these same licks for 1-2 hours at a time, sometimes before breakfast and before bed.

Unfortunately it is hard work- but in my experience completely doable. I had the exact same problem as you- but it looks like i was lucky the second time when i decided to practise these things (as opposed to the initial mess-up of trying to immitate what guys on youtube were doing but explaining poorly, YJM was the chief of what messed up my picking!, i honestly thought he said alternate picking was what economy is).

This is about the best advice i can give- as it is exactly what i did, good luck man biggrin.gif



Where were you all these years ? laugh.gif You have no idea how much that post is going to help. I thank you from the bottom of heart smile.gif

QUOTE (kyldeee @ Aug 18 2008, 07:45 AM) *
By Double stroke, do you mean when u for i.e play a descending lick and you have just played the upper string ( lets say lower E) with a downstroke and continue with a downstroke on the next string ( A string ), although you should start with a upstroke... did I get it right huh.gif Economy picking....


Yes. Exactly, Its not the motion itself, but when you take motion and apply it to changing strings smile.gif
QUOTE (seagull @ Aug 18 2008, 07:45 AM) *
Well, you shouldn't be down about using economy picking! It's not like it's something that kills your playing. You should practice both economy and alternate picking, but the trick is to KNOW when you are using which and WHY.

So my advice for you is to lay of the economy and practice slowly on alternate picking, so that you can get used to the movement of alternating. You don't have to play anything, just pick the strings using strict up-down-up-down-up motions. And really pay attention that you are using that motion only and don't fall into economy again.

When you have practiced the motion long enough to be comfortable with it, the you can use this exercise:
Start with your finger on the low E-string on any fret, and just continue cromatically like if you start from the 5th fret,

E ----5-6-7-8

and then continue on the A-string

A ----5-6-7-8

and on the D-string

D ----5-6-7-8

and so forth and back again from the high e-string

e -----8-7-6-5

B -----8-7-6-5

etc.

Hope this helps. smile.gif

Thanks Seagull. I have been doing that for awhile except on frets 1-2-3 and 4.
As well as switching up finger postions for things like 2-3-1-4.

But thank you biggrin.gif



QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Aug 18 2008, 07:47 AM) *
Well... it's not like knowing economy picking is a bad thing. I'm thinking about sticking to economy picking actually. Haha...



Never said it was a bad thing, but It is a bad habit to ONLY Economy Pick. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Aug 18 2008, 07:56 AM) *
It is because you practiced all these fast licks mostly with EP, but don't worry mate, it si not a big problem at all. The good thing is that you've localized the problem and now you can work on it to make it better. IMO you just need to spend more focused practice on AP runs in order to play them. Check out some alternate picking lessons on GMC, specially Muris ones. He has advanced AP technique and with a couple of tips from those and some dedicated work you can really take AP to the next level.


Thanks Ivan biggrin.gif

All these Posts and helpful responses are helping me rebuild the courage I need to practice hard and get to Gilbert-Speed !




Yippie ! biggrin.gif


Thanks to everyone for all their help biggrin.gif


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Muris Varajic
post Aug 18 2008, 05:07 PM
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That is usual problem is cause most of us play
3nps runs and those runs are just made to be executed be economy.
Try some 2nps(pentatonics usually) or even 4 nps runs
(like chromatic exercises that Seagull mentioned),
that cannot be sweepped and you'll push yourself to play strict alternate. smile.gif



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fire
post Aug 18 2008, 05:15 PM
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i had the same problems and this is what helped me out:

if you play strict alternate picking and you start with an Downstroke, you have on EVERY "click" of the metronome an downstroke. This helped me much more than the updownupdown thing because i could also not figure out when doing what in playing.

But as an exercise: go to a speed playing 16ths u're comfortable with, f.e. 80bpm then let the metronome play twice fast, 160bpm and play 8ths: now you have on every "click" an downstroke.
This was kind of an easy way to get rid of this. Hope it helped wink.gif

cheers


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DeepRoots
post Aug 18 2008, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Aug 18 2008, 05:03 PM) *
Where were you all these years ? laugh.gif You have no idea how much that post is going to help. I thank you from the bottom of heart smile.gif

No problem man, like i said- this was just about exactly what i did to get over this problem, as mentioned- theres nothing wrong with economy picking, but when there's a technique that you can't do (in this case alternate picking) it's a major downer. I found that even 2 or 4 note per string stuff didn't help so much because it starts/ends with the same pickstroke, just like 3nps economy dry.gif laugh.gif

Watch out for that upstroke on the adjacent string, that's the key smile.gif
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Caelumamittendum
post Aug 18 2008, 05:43 PM
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A reason to use economy picking though would be to save energy. E-C-O-N-O-M-Y. I think in certain situations it's really worth using or playing with EP. That said - EP would alsp be playing alternate picking on 2 notes per string patterns, because that is the most economic way of doing that...etc.


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post Aug 18 2008, 05:44 PM
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+1 to fire and their comment.

I wasn't even doing economy picking I was just tremolo picking as hard as I could to do fast runs a few years ago. when I realized how muddy distorted and unarticulated it sounded I took my metronome and conciously on the beat of the metronome used alternate picking - this vastly improved my solo abilities!

Anyone who reads this IF YOU DON'T USE A METRONOME YOU SHOULD. I practice with one constantly. You don't know a lick until you can execute it properly and cleaning with the metronome.

ermmmmmmmmmmmm i wish I knew this like6 years ago
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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Aug 18 2008, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (fire @ Aug 18 2008, 08:15 AM) *
i had the same problems and this is what helped me out:

if you play strict alternate picking and you start with an Downstroke, you have on EVERY "click" of the metronome an downstroke. This helped me much more than the updownupdown thing because i could also not figure out when doing what in playing.

But as an exercise: go to a speed playing 16ths u're comfortable with, f.e. 80bpm then let the metronome play twice fast, 160bpm and play 8ths: now you have on every "click" an downstroke.
This was kind of an easy way to get rid of this. Hope it helped wink.gif

cheers


Thanks Fire I'll try that biggrin.gif


QUOTE (DeepRoots @ Aug 18 2008, 08:18 AM) *
No problem man, like i said- this was just about exactly what i did to get over this problem, as mentioned- theres nothing wrong with economy picking, but when there's a technique that you can't do (in this case alternate picking) it's a major downer. I found that even 2 or 4 note per string stuff didn't help so much because it starts/ends with the same pickstroke, just like 3nps economy dry.gif laugh.gif

Watch out for that upstroke on the adjacent string, that's the key smile.gif


Yeah ! Its not that I cant Ap. at all its that Im limited to how well I can do it . When its like alternating between two strings its fairly easy but anything more then that ( 3nps Runs) and Im left in the dust biggrin.gif And I also found that the 2 or 4 nps runs dont help for the same reason that you said smile.gif. By practicing those I feel like im not attacking the problem, just AP. in a different way biggrin.gif .
QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Aug 18 2008, 08:43 AM) *
A reason to use economy picking though would be to save energy. E-C-O-N-O-M-Y. I think in certain situations it's really worth using or playing with EP. That said - EP would alsp be playing alternate picking on 2 notes per string patterns, because that is the most economic way of doing that...etc.



Exactly. Would you only want to use Economy? Or have 2 equally mastered techniques to alternate between? I rather have choice 2 biggrin.gif .





I have a question. Is it better to practice Alternate Picking Runs - Clean- or -Distorted- ?


Or does it depend what your working on ? Ex. Clean-----> Hearing the Notes, Accenting etc. / Distorted------> Muting, etc.


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Muris Varajic
post Aug 18 2008, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Aug 18 2008, 07:26 PM) *
I have a question. Is it better to practice Alternate Picking Runs - Clean- or -Distorted- ?


Or does it depend what your working on ? Ex. Clean-----> Hearing the Notes, Accenting etc. / Distorted------> Muting, etc.


Just as you pointed,there are cudos for both ways. smile.gif


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post Aug 18 2008, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Aug 18 2008, 06:43 PM) *
A reason to use economy picking though would be to save energy. E-C-O-N-O-M-Y. I think in certain situations it's really worth using or playing with EP. That said - EP would alsp be playing alternate picking on 2 notes per string patterns, because that is the most economic way of doing that...etc.

That's true.
But I think the real reason lies in the sound: economy is really smooth (attack-less) - like sweeping - where alternate picking is more articulate and agressive. smile.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Aug 18 2008, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (jacmoe @ Aug 18 2008, 09:21 PM) *
That's true.
But I think the real reason lies in the sound: economy is really smooth (attack-less) - like sweeping - where alternate picking is more articulate and agressive. smile.gif


True, but I geuss you could practice your ecomony to be articulate and aggressive too. That said - I'm a smooth guy! laugh.gif


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besip
post Aug 20 2008, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (fire @ Aug 18 2008, 11:15 AM) *
i had the same problems and this is what helped me out:

if you play strict alternate picking and you start with an Downstroke, you have on EVERY "click" of the metronome an downstroke. This helped me much more than the updownupdown thing because i could also not figure out when doing what in playing.

But as an exercise: go to a speed playing 16ths u're comfortable with, f.e. 80bpm then let the metronome play twice fast, 160bpm and play 8ths: now you have on every "click" an downstroke.
This was kind of an easy way to get rid of this. Hope it helped wink.gif

cheers


this is look good and i'm will try it
actualy i'm was find after few month of playing alternate i'm didn't play alternate but economy..specialy when i'm play exersize 3 note per string and i'm play DUD and when i'm skiping to the next string i'm again start with Downstoke{my fingers when i'm skiping string always looking for shortes way} last week i'm start trying to avoid that but somethime i'm have problem find out if i'm play well tongue.gif becouse my fingers has all readymuscle memory for the economy

so that thing with metronome can probaly help...i'm will try it!!!
i'm also probaly will gonna pay attention now for training the alternate picking when i'm play over pentatonic scale to play this with acendig and decending way becouse usualy i'm was play that just by 1 way

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Jose Mena
post Aug 20 2008, 10:04 PM
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Man, this shows how different everybody's learning experience is. It never occurred to me to do economy picking until I saw Frank Gambale, I had practiced alternate for a long time. When I discovered economy picking it cost me hours a day and months to get used to the technique, I use it very little but it cost me, and I never thought that there were people that go through the same but from the other side.

However it can be done, so practice your alternate but do not walk away from economy, when you have both, you will be unstoppable. Now I feel like sitting down and practice some economy picking licks and come up with a lesson.


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