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> Hello!, ...and a question...
kevvyg
post Aug 24 2008, 05:46 PM
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Hi, I've just joined GMC and I'd like to say it's fantastic!
I spent a while last Friday writing a (rather lengthy) question, and when I pressed the 'post' button, I lost the connection to the site. I can't see it was because of anything I did, but it was a weird coincidence!
My post may already be in the forum, but how do I find it in 200+ pages?
Is there a control I can use to show me just my posts?
Anyway, just in case my message didn't get posted, I'll repeat it...it's about modes.

If I'm playing a piece of music, and it's in C major (for example), I'll be using just the notes CDEFGAB. There will also be accompanying chords built on these notes, in this case C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G major, A minor, and B diminished. The piece may or may not begin or end with a C note or chord, so what identifies the piece as C major, with respect to the sound or 'feel' of the piece? Why can this piece of music not be in any of the seven modes, as they all, in this case, are using the same seven notes, ie, CDEFGAB. I know that the interval pattern of TTSTTTS gives us a major scale (or Ionic mode), and starting from consequtive notes in the scale gives us different modes, in this case D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc, but what 'makes' the piece sound like a particular mode? In the above case, am I playing in all seven modes simultaneously? It could even be in A minor. How do you know? Is it just dependant on the chords being used and how they bring the piece 'home' using cadences, ie C major would end G Major to C major? If this is the case, why does playing from the fifth fret on the sixth string (A) and using the phrygian 'box shape' sound so Spanish, even when there are no chords behind it?
As you can tell, this is confusing me and has done for years!!
If anyone can explain this modal stuff, I'll be eternally grateful!! Help!!!!
Right, that's it for now, but one last thing - I love all forms of guitar music, but I am primarily into rock, HM etc, with my main influences being, amonst others, Black Sabbath, ACDC, Iron Maiden, Satriani, Malmsteen, Rammstein, Queensryche, etc etc. My favourite band however is RUSH. I notice that there are no lessons included with respect to Alex Lifeson. Could I request some, please?!!!

Thanks,
Kevin


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superize
post Aug 24 2008, 05:51 PM
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Welcom to the site

If you go to the forum and look at the top of the page you see your forum name. Click on it and there you can see the newest postyou have written but since you only have 1 post so far i dont think the one you wrote earlier got to the forum.

Hope it helps and welcome again you will enjoy this site alot


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kyldeee
post Aug 24 2008, 05:52 PM
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Welcome to GMC mate smile.gif


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skennington
post Aug 24 2008, 06:10 PM
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Welcome to the site Kevin. Superize showed you the quickest way to find your post smile.gif As far as your theory question goes, I'm sure somebody will chime in and answer. I've wondered the same thing as I think it boils down to the root note that determines the key.


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kevvyg
post Aug 24 2008, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE (skennington @ Aug 24 2008, 06:10 PM) *
Welcome to the site Kevin. Superize showed you the quickest way to find your post smile.gif As far as your theory question goes, I'm sure somebody will chime in and answer. I've wondered the same thing as I think it boils down to the root note that determines the key.

Yes, I'm sure someone will be able to help me out!
I think the question I'm asking, is what makes a piece sound dorian or locrian etc?
I think it's one of those things that's a complete mystery until the point when it clicks and the light bulb comes on above your head!

KG
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Emir Hot
post Aug 24 2008, 07:02 PM
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haha I have just written over 1000 words about the theory question and somehow it's all gone.

I will be back with the answer soon if somebody else doesn't answer before.


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superize
post Aug 24 2008, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Aug 24 2008, 08:02 PM) *
haha I have just written over 1000 words about the theory question and somehow it's all gone.

I will be back with the answer soon if somebody else doesn't answer before.


Dont you just hate when that happens


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Emir Hot
post Aug 24 2008, 07:09 PM
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yes I do smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Aug 24 2008, 09:58 PM
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Here is my answer about the theory.

There are several ways to find out what key your song is. One of the simplest ways would be by listening. If your song starts in C major, later has some other chords changes and in the end finishes in C major - it is obvious that the song tonality is C major. If you have a score or some kind of lead sheet of the song and there are no accidentals (sharps or flats), you will automatically know that the song is in C major or A minor (not talking about modes at this point). How to figure which of these two is only by hearing how it sounds and on what chord the song parts resolve most of the time. You asked why a song like this cannot be in any key of 7 notes from the scale. From this simple example you wouldn't say that the song is in Bm7b5 (Locrian mode) although those notes are notes from the C major scale. The song is still in C major. In the modern way of notation it is practice to write modal key signatures. By that I mean if your whole song melody is in F lydian, you would see 1 flat in the key signature which refers to F major. The same is if your song is in D dorian, you would write 1 flat at the begining of the score which also stands for D minor key. From here you can notice that you have 1 flat for the song in D minor where D dorian mode is present most of the time. That mode is the second mode of C major but you will still see 1 flat in the key signature which tells you that the song has got nothing to do with C major tonality even if the scale is the same. You mentioned you are fan of Iron Maiden. Most of their songs are in E aeolian mode. For the key signature of E aeolian melody you would write 1 sharp in their notation but of course you wouldn't think that the song is in G major but E minor.

I hope you get the point from this but I would like to see some other comments on this. Muris could say a lot about this or some other theory master from GMC.

This post has been edited by Emir Hot: Aug 24 2008, 10:04 PM


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JeroenKole
post Aug 24 2008, 10:42 PM
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Hisham Al-Sanea
post Aug 24 2008, 11:02 PM
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Nemanja Filipovi...
post Aug 24 2008, 11:04 PM
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Gerardo Siere
post Aug 25 2008, 01:43 AM
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Jose Mena
post Aug 25 2008, 03:58 AM
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Hello

Welcome to GMC, as far as the question, hopefully I can be of some help.

The way I see it, what gives it a certain tonality is the chord that the song is in. It is like the song always returns to this chord.

For instance take, Joe Satriani's Summer song, he plays A major chord most of the time, the bass keeps playing A for the longest time, he plays other chords but then always returns to A letting you know this is the main chord of the song. And he plays Mixolydian.

If somehow Satriani decided to play D major chord and start a common D major chord progression, maybe even leaving A out of it. You would feel the tonality changed to D major or Ionian.

The best way to experiment with this would be to pick a chord from C Ionian, say F major, and play this chord and this chord only on a backing track, and play on F Lydian (C Ionian) for a long time, create melodies on Lydian till you get used to it, then bring other chords in, test it with other modes, and get familiar with the sounds, your ears will get used to these sounds.

Maybe there is an exact name or theory for what I am trying to say, hopefully one of our theory experts will chip in.

Have fun playing, and welcome again


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sigma7
post Aug 25 2008, 04:24 AM
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Aug 25 2008, 01:23 PM
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Welcome to GMC mate. smile.gif

Emir and Jose pretty much said it nicely, key signature is basically a tonic of a major scale in classical notation, no matter what modes you use. The key tells mainly the harmony, so if you see C major like in your example there is only one and one only set of unique set of chords that is revolving around C note in C major key. What scales you will use on top of that usually is defined with a choice of chords. Basic chords (tritones) will have only three notes, and one of the definitions of a tritone is that it appears in different keys and chords. So for example when you have Cmajor and Eminor chord, their tritones can be found as I-III in C major and IV-VI in Gmajor, so this opens up 2 possibilities for different modes to be used. If you play Cmajor scale on top of it, it will sound Cmajor, if you play E minor scale it will sound Dmajor.
So key is there as a guideline to tell musicians what chordal harmony to expect when reading a piece.



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kevvyg
post Aug 25 2008, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Aug 25 2008, 01:23 PM) *
Welcome to GMC mate. smile.gif

Emir and Jose pretty much said it nicely, key signature is basically a tonic of a major scale in classical notation, no matter what modes you use. The key tells mainly the harmony, so if you see C major like in your example there is only one and one only set of unique set of chords that is revolving around C note in C major key. What scales you will use on top of that usually is defined with a choice of chords. Basic chords (tritones) will have only three notes, and one of the definitions of a tritone is that it appears in different keys and chords. So for example when you have Cmajor and Eminor chord, their tritones can be found as I-III in C major and IV-VI in Gmajor, so this opens up 2 possibilities for different modes to be used. If you play Cmajor scale on top of it, it will sound Cmajor, if you play E minor scale it will sound Dmajor.
So key is there as a guideline to tell musicians what chordal harmony to expect when reading a piece.

Ok, thanks for that everyone! I'll just have to practice over backing tracks of chord progressions to see how each 'mode' sounds. I'm sure there must be a definitive answer - like someone said, we need a theory expert!
If anyone would like to chip in with an explanation of modes, please feel free!!
Oh, and any more views on my request for RUSH style tutorials? They ARE one of the World's greatest bands, after all......

KG
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post Aug 25 2008, 09:50 PM
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Juan M. Valero
post Aug 25 2008, 10:14 PM
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kjutte
post Aug 26 2008, 03:52 PM
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You pretty much gotta know the sound of each mode to do that.

As you practise this, you will easily hear each mode.
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