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> End Of The World?
The Uncreator
post Sep 12 2008, 12:49 AM
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Well the Hadron Collider has already been used without creating a blackhole, I doubt it will happen, The physics only really work out in theory for the blackhole on earth, I know its "Possible", But still its way more unlikely anything bad will come of it.

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FrankW
post Sep 12 2008, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 12 2008, 12:22 AM) *
Perhaps with 6 billion people going on 12, and most probable scenarios for the future (wrt the ability to even feed them) being pretty bleak, perhaps there are bigger fish to fry?

Science in the past has has some practical purpose, so real way that it helped man. This does nothing. I have read probably as much on modern Physics as most here I am sure. But it just is kind of useless. I can't think of any scientific efforts in the past that even approach the level uselessness of this research.

I don't think at this stage of the game, that this is the area scientific minds should be focused on. Things are going to get really rough in real ways (such as food) in the next decades, those are the areas they should be focused on. They can worry about whether we have 11 dimensions or not in the 22nd century I figure, but for now, I think they should focus on trying to get us though the 21st.

I don't disagree with you. Read the third sentence I wrote. When I say we should "go for it", I'm referring to supporting the spirit of exploration, albeit in a way that serves a practical purpose.
I'm with you, I can't see spending begillions of dollars on studying the mating habits of the pink-assed baboon or some such nonsense, just to fund some geeks who are afraid of working hard for a living...but, what can ya' do?
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VinceG
post Sep 12 2008, 02:35 AM
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Whatever happens in our 7(?) layers of atmosphere is much more intense than whats being calculated in the LCH. Nothing is going to happen. Besides, its awesome that there doing this. I'm sure the scientist are not gonna make something that could potentially destroy the planet. What's gonna be the outcome of that if you risk all human life forms?

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fkalich
post Sep 12 2008, 04:26 AM
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QUOTE (VinceG @ Sep 11 2008, 08:35 PM) *
Whatever happens in our 7(?) layers of atmosphere is much more intense than whats being calculated in the LCH. Nothing is going to happen. Besides, its awesome that there doing this. I'm sure the scientist are not gonna make something that could potentially destroy the planet. What's gonna be the outcome of that if you risk all human life forms?


Based on what I have seen first hand on a 7 billion dollar project.....

To think that those in the scientific community would not take chances totally unacceptable to the rest of humanity is wrong thinking. They have great jobs. Often low pressure. Often a lot of fun. And good pay. They live in great places, where if they lost the job, they could not find another one there. Certainly not as good. They have families. A small chance of destruction of the planet is one thing, a big chance of losing the job, having to sell the house and find a job in another city for the wife and 3 kids is another. And between the two, they will take the small chance of destroying mankind.

They won't take a 25% chance. But they will take a heck of a bigger chance than 1 in 50 million. I don't believe the 1 in 50 million crap. To the extent they do anything that cannot be demonstrated to occur in nature frequently without destructive effects, the risk is unknown. I go back to my Atomic bomb test. If scientists totally bought into the "I did the calculations and clearly this is impossible" bit, why was the one guy scared when it went off that the atmosphere was being engulfed.

IF they do any novel experiment that they have not been able to clearly observe in nature, one that is based only on calculations, a lot of them will try to hide it, but when they still find themselves breathing, they will given an inner sigh of relief.

But I don't know if they will be able do do anything like that. With all the crap on internet, it is hard to find. And even having read books on it, it is still hard to know the answer to that. I have heard that they won't, but I am not certain of that. I would like to be certain, but nobody here will be able to tell me that, no matter what their position. And that tells you something.

QUOTE (VinceG @ Sep 11 2008, 08:35 PM) *
Whatever happens in our 7(?) layers of atmosphere is much more intense than whats being calculated in the LCH. Nothing is going to happen. Besides, its awesome that there doing this. I'm sure the scientist are not gonna make something that could potentially destroy the planet. What's gonna be the outcome of that if you risk all human life forms?


you are the one how may be able to answer my question, but that was not enough, just you saying that. What are your references for that? Do you have something solid and tangible to back it. That is the only real concern, are they going to do anything that does not occur frequently in nature, based only on untested theory. Because if they do that, they are into the unknown, and risk calculations are just guess work then.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Sep 12 2008, 04:27 AM
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Ajmurrell
post Sep 14 2008, 04:03 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 12 2008, 04:26 AM) *
Based on what I have seen first hand on a 7 billion dollar project.....

To think that those in the scientific community would not take chances totally unacceptable to the rest of humanity is wrong thinking. They have great jobs. Often low pressure. Often a lot of fun. And good pay. They live in great places, where if they lost the job, they could not find another one there. Certainly not as good. They have families. A small chance of destruction of the planet is one thing, a big chance of losing the job, having to sell the house and find a job in another city for the wife and 3 kids is another. And between the two, they will take the small chance of destroying mankind.

They won't take a 25% chance. But they will take a heck of a bigger chance than 1 in 50 million. I don't believe the 1 in 50 million crap. To the extent they do anything that cannot be demonstrated to occur in nature frequently without destructive effects, the risk is unknown. I go back to my Atomic bomb test. If scientists totally bought into the "I did the calculations and clearly this is impossible" bit, why was the one guy scared when it went off that the atmosphere was being engulfed.

IF they do any novel experiment that they have not been able to clearly observe in nature, one that is based only on calculations, a lot of them will try to hide it, but when they still find themselves breathing, they will given an inner sigh of relief.

But I don't know if they will be able do do anything like that. With all the crap on internet, it is hard to find. And even having read books on it, it is still hard to know the answer to that. I have heard that they won't, but I am not certain of that. I would like to be certain, but nobody here will be able to tell me that, no matter what their position. And that tells you something.



you are the one how may be able to answer my question, but that was not enough, just you saying that. What are your references for that? Do you have something solid and tangible to back it. That is the only real concern, are they going to do anything that does not occur frequently in nature, based only on untested theory. Because if they do that, they are into the unknown, and risk calculations are just guess work then.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-energy_cosmic_ray

Now I'm aware that this is a Wiki article and thus may not be as reliable as you'd wish for, but check the external links section, most notably here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-energy_cosmic_ray.

You'll see that a particle of estimated energy around 3.2x1020 eV has been recorded, which is far beyond what the LHC can produce.

I also found this video, which is a little to technical for my understanding, but it talks about current technological man created eV charged particle levels, compared to cosmic ray energy. http://www.telescopearray.org/movies/wmp250k.wmv

Not sure if any of that helped you, I don't pretend to know much about it, but I find it all very very interesting smile.gif

This post has been edited by Ajmurrell: Sep 14 2008, 04:11 AM


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Muris Varajic
post Sep 14 2008, 01:03 PM
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Science is like that,sometimes less risky,sometimes more risky.

I do support experiments like this one cause there are many
different theories on how the universe was "born" etc.
"Black Hole" still sounds pretty scary and I hope it'll all go smooth
without any major consequence. mellow.gif


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Nazgul
post Sep 14 2008, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Sep 12 2008, 01:49 AM) *
Well the Hadron Collider has already been used without creating a blackhole, I doubt it will happen, The physics only really work out in theory for the blackhole on earth, I know its "Possible", But still its way more unlikely anything bad will come of it.

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smile.gif. I agree.

It IS possible, but come on... rolleyes.gif No one should be afraid of this. That would be quite freaky if the world suddenly disappeared, wouldn't it? huh.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Sep 14 2008, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (Nazgul @ Sep 14 2008, 02:12 PM) *
smile.gif . I agree.

It IS possible, but come on... rolleyes.gif No one should be afraid of this. That would be quite freaky if the world suddenly disappeared, wouldn't it? huh.gif


You wouldn't notice it, as it would take 1/20 of a second wink.gif

By the way... they haven't "crashed" the two yet, that is still to happen. And if that creates a black hole, that black hole is going to be so small that it will die again before it can "eat" anything.


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Matt23
post Sep 14 2008, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Sep 14 2008, 01:55 PM) *
You wouldn't notice it, as it would take 1/20 of a second wink.gif

By the way... they haven't "crashed" the two yet, that is still to happen. And if that creates a black hole, that black hole is going to be so small that it will die again before it can "eat" anything.



Yeh i theres a 1/50 000 000 chance they'll make a black hole and that black hole will most probably be so small it will die before it can get bigger anyway. Personally i just think the papers are trying to make a story and theres hardly any risk of the world being sucked into a black hole.
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Rooks
post Sep 14 2008, 02:32 PM
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Well, knowing that a black whole is created when stars burn out their "fuel", and implode under their own massive gravity creating a ball the size of 0,01 mm in diameter but still amassing the same weight; confining everything surrounding into this mass-paradoxy-like vortexfield.

I'm not very concerned about CERN using the "massive" weight of about 500u and bashing a few particles together.. Yea there's a probability that antimatter in extremely little quantitude will exist in fragments of a nanosecond.

I'm more afraid of accidently tripping over a leprechaun going out my front door, and bashing my head into the curb killing me

( least the black hole thing will sound more cool on my tombstone)

If it DID happen, imagine being an astronaut looking at earth just going down the drain.. "haha good I'm not down the-....

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MickeM
post Sep 14 2008, 02:41 PM
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The only one on earth capable of creating a black hole is Chuck Norris, he just have to kick real hard and fast in the thin blue air, crushing the atoms into such mass a black hole appears.

No scientists, only Chuck Norris. And as far as I know he's not involved in this project, it's beneath him.


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SonofDestiny
post Sep 14 2008, 02:44 PM
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I read in the newspaper that an Indian girl got so scared about this, she killed herself the night before the experiment. Such a shame..

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Skalde
post Sep 14 2008, 02:54 PM
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If this is true, I doubt that the experiment was the only reason.
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mjsteps
post Sep 14 2008, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 12 2008, 12:22 AM) *
Perhaps with 6 billion people going on 12, and most probable scenarios for the future (wrt the ability to even feed them) being pretty bleak, perhaps there are bigger fish to fry?

Science in the past has has some practical purpose, so real way that it helped man. This does nothing. I have read probably as much on modern Physics as most here I am sure. But it just is kind of useless. I can't think of any scientific efforts in the past that even approach the level uselessness of this research.

I don't think at this stage of the game, that this is the area scientific minds should be focused on. Things are going to get really rough in real ways (such as food) in the next decades, those are the areas they should be focused on. They can worry about whether we have 11 dimensions or not in the 22nd century I figure, but for now, I think they should focus on trying to get us though the 21st.



Well I"ll chime in for no good reason except to ask "Perhaps some questions are not to be answered"?
Or " Perhaps some answers are not to be questioned"?

Take a look at topics such as global warming. For every 100 hundred cases made there are two hundred to refute such claims. Take a look at whether the universe is expanding or is it contracting? are we moving forward in time or perhaps we are moving backwards. These topics make guitar look easy.

Mjsteps


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JVM
post Sep 14 2008, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE (Matt23 @ Sep 14 2008, 09:29 AM) *
Yeh i theres a 1/50 000 000 chance they'll make a black hole and that black hole will most probably be so small it will die before it can get bigger anyway. Personally i just think the papers are trying to make a story and theres hardly any risk of the world being sucked into a black hole.


I think its a very solid idea that more so than scientific risk taking this is an issue of media sensationalism (be it on a rather small scale, however, it is present everywhere in varying doses).


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Jesse
post Sep 14 2008, 04:49 PM
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I think in 2012 the world will change... Dont know how.. doomsday? the rapture? revelation? I dont know;D Mayas calender ended on 12 12 2012 so.


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unreal
post Sep 14 2008, 06:22 PM
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I think that the story with 'creating black holes' was first initialized by some scientists that wanted to boost funding for the project, because they needed a good catchphrase. Seems the media turned that plan back on them.

It's angering though that even though all the estimations I have seen do not predict any danger at all, but the fear that is created is real, and there are many people who are or were really scared, and I have read some quite ridiculous stories about the end of the world in newspapers, some even cursing the whole physics community for playing with all our lives.
That is something I don't see, the LHC is not a machine that is qualitatively different from previous colliders, and everything that can happen in there, has already happened so many times (for at least 4 billion years now) in our atmosphere, or in the atmosphere of the sun or the other planets, for that matter, and still, there are no black holes in our solar system.
The only difference is, in the LHC, they are able to measure the outcomes of strong collisions, while they couldn't do that in the atmosphere of the earth because they don't have control there.

But I also want to quote a friend of mine here who said: No matter what's true or not, a civilization that ends it's existence by creating their own black hole at least has some style wink.gif.
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Nemanja Filipovi...
post Sep 14 2008, 06:33 PM
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I am shore every thing will go as planed.And we will haw the answers to all the questions here asked.


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fkalich
post Sep 14 2008, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE (Nemanja Filipovic @ Sep 14 2008, 12:33 PM) *
I am shore every thing will go as planed.And we will haw the answers to all the questions here asked.


Well, I am only sure because collisions occur at much greater energies do occur frequently in the upper atmosphere. It is not powerful enough to worry about. If it were, if it really could perform experiments that we do not see occurring in nature around us without catastrophic results, you would have cause for concern.


Why would you consider it so far fetched that a civilization reaches a point where it has technology capable of destroying a little corner of a Galaxy, because they did not know what they were dealing with? Because they were arrogant and thought they understood things better than they really did. Scientists have always thought they understood things better than they really did. Here is a good book for the layman on that kind of thing.

http://www.amazon.com/Short-History-Nearly...8551&sr=8-1


But I don't think we have to worry, yet. Not with this pop gun. But I do believe that they are moving in that direction.
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FrankW
post Sep 15 2008, 12:54 AM
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The only question I want answered is, how is this thing relevant to the benefit of Mankind? I'm not saying it isn't, I don't know enough about it. I just want to know if the billions of dollars being spent on this thing will give us answers that will help us move forward in some meaningful way.
It's supposed to answer questions concerning the Big Bang Theory. How does that ultimately benefit all of us? If it does, good, otherwise, it's just another wild goose chase at the expense of the taxpayer...
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