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> End Of The World?
FrankW
post Sep 15 2008, 02:45 AM
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QUOTE (The Uncreator @ Sep 12 2008, 12:49 AM) *
Well the Hadron Collider has already been used without creating a blackhole, I doubt it will happen, The physics only really work out in theory for the blackhole on earth, I know its "Possible", But still its way more unlikely anything bad will come of it.

The Atom Smasher Is Your Friend smile.gif


I think that the odds of this thing creating earth eating black holes is a lot more remote than us being struck by a giant hemmorhoid from space. ..there's some real planet killers floating around out there...
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Rolls
post Sep 15 2008, 03:07 AM
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Wait until they start building these things in space. It is going to look like Halo for sure! What about the $4 billion spent on this machine....is it going to help us find free energy, help solve poverty, do anything besides possibly solve someone's curiosity on how the universe was created? BLAH
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Nemanja Filipovi...
post Sep 15 2008, 03:20 AM
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QUOTE (Rolls @ Sep 15 2008, 04:07 AM) *
Wait until they start building these things in space. It is going to look like Halo for sure! What about the $4 billion spent on this machine....is it going to help us find free energy, help solve poverty, do anything besides possibly solve someone's curiosity on how the universe was created? BLAH

free energy is a great idea,but,I dont think that the interests of the big companies will let that happend.
Nikola Tesla had the similar idea,and even solution,but nothing came out of that.But it would be great.


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Smikey2006
post Sep 15 2008, 05:33 AM
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we have free energy.. its called the sun.. we just need to harvest it.. MORE SOLAR! anyways im sure that nothing bad will come from this collider. Stephen Hawking has said that the probability of black holes is soo small.. and even if they were created they would disappear.. thing about how they are created in the first place stars collapsing on themselves.. and even this process takes thousands of years.. our miniscule blackhole couldn't find enough matter quickly enough to get very large.. i think the whole black hole thing is just doomsayers wanting to freak people out.. the funny thing is it has worked on alot of people. I have no idea what the hydrogen collider is going to teach us (im sure we will learn so much that the average person wont understand what we are learning) but i look forward to some collisions and i look forward to reading what is really going on smile.gif


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Jesse
post Sep 15 2008, 07:19 AM
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:| Didn't think some of you knew so much bout physica:| Im in my 4 year from 6 years highschool. And I dont have physics anymore.. YES!:D


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mjsteps
post Sep 15 2008, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Sep 15 2008, 12:54 AM) *
The only question I want answered is, how is this thing relevant to the benefit of Mankind? I'm not saying it isn't, I don't know enough about it. I just want to know if the billions of dollars being spent on this thing will give us answers that will help us move forward in some meaningful way.
It's supposed to answer questions concerning the Big Bang Theory. How does that ultimately benefit all of us? If it does, good, otherwise, it's just another wild goose chase at the expense of the taxpayer...



HERE IS THE BENEFIT: TO EMBRACE THE SECULAR HUMANISTS POINT OF VIEW.
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Nemanja Filipovi...
post Sep 15 2008, 10:27 AM
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QUOTE (Smikey2006 @ Sep 15 2008, 06:33 AM) *
we have free energy.. its called the sun..

Well sed my friend,and I agree,Sun is probably the best energy source.


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fkalich
post Sep 15 2008, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE (Jesse @ Sep 15 2008, 01:19 AM) *
:| Didn't think some of you knew so much bout physica:| Im in my 4 year from 6 years highschool. And I dont have physics anymore.. YES!:D


I have not seen any evidence than anyone here but myself has read extensively on the subject, just sounds mostly like BS artists throwing around buzz words.

I don't care about black holes, or what Hawking said. I read his book twice. What I care about is that the history of science is a history of unforeseen side effects, due to scientists not fully understanding what they were dealing with. Both of the Curies had radiation poisoning. Marie died of cancer, her husband would have, but he had an accident that killed him first. Issac Newton has 40 times the level of Mercury in his hair than a corpse should have. Who was the chemist who used to taste his chemicals, I forget. They never were sure what killed him. You find case after case in history where scientists performed experiments where they did not fully understand what they were dealing with, of the dangers involved.

I doubt anything happens here. But considering the clearly bizarre and strange nature of the Universe (not even considering parallel universes) if you think mankind can go gung ho into experiments dealing with forces we do not fully understand, and that there is not the potential of some time bomb being set off that nobody even comprehends at this time, you are clearly a historical illiterate at best, and possibly a pin head.

I know the argument, they are not doing anything that is not occur in nature all the time around us. Well probably.
But it is things like this, where maybe somebody missed something, and no, you are doing something different, there is some difference. There certainly is a difference between a super cooled tube and the upper atmosphere.

I am not worried, simply because generally the worst things you think might happen, don't happen. But I am not naive enough to think that any cutting edge experimentation with unimaginable powers such as this, into the unknown, could not be full of unforeseen risks. LIke a cockroach who only sees on ground, and says "it is safe", and does not see the crow swooping down.

QUOTE (Nemanja Filipovic @ Sep 15 2008, 04:27 AM) *
Well sed my friend,and I agree,Sun is probably the best energy source.


Solar can never make a dent. I saw as study in college. They could cover the state of arizona with panels, and it would not be that significant. You have to have solar where there is little cloud cover. It is not possible for this to be significant for many decades. Nor can wind. Nor will Fusion for at least a century.


QUOTE (mjsteps @ Sep 15 2008, 04:02 AM) *
HERE IS THE BENEFIT: TO EMBRACE THE SECULAR HUMANISTS POINT OF VIEW.


You bring up something critical, but I don't know if you are connecting certain dots.

There are some serious fundamentalists out there. Who have written that if it takes a few billion dead to accomplish their aims, so be it.

What do you think happens if the mass of mankind really does get pulled out of the primitive mythology and superstition that most live in today? If these people see their world crumbling, and their strategies falling apart, and they feel they have their backs up against the wall? They will have big nukes by then, bank on it. What if it reaches a point that they feel it is wrath of God time?

You are not going to pull everyone out of mythology, some will die first, and maybe take a lot of you with them.

Like it or not, the mythological view society has of existence is what keeps society stable. You might move to a new stability eventually. As the French did after the Revolution. After enough heads were lopped off. And after the Napoleonic wars left a generation dead. Or as Russia did, after Lenin and Stalin killed 20 million, and Adolf killed another 20 million.
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unreal
post Sep 15 2008, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 15 2008, 12:58 PM) *
I have not seen any evidence than anyone here but myself has read extensively on the subject, just sounds mostly like BS artists throwing around buzz words.

With all respect to your knowledge and expertise in that field (and this is not meant ironic or sarcastic, I can see you really dig into these matters more deeply than the average person), it seems to me that
QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 15 2008, 12:58 PM) *
I doubt anything happens here. But considering the clearly bizarre and strange nature of the Universe (not even considering parallel universes) if you think mankind can go gung ho into experiments dealing with forces we do not fully understand, and that there is not the potential of some time bomb being set off that nobody even comprehends at this time, you are clearly a historical illiterate at best, and possibly a pin head.

and

QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 15 2008, 12:58 PM) *
There certainly is a difference between a super cooled tube and the upper atmosphere.

and

QUOTE (fkalich @ Sep 15 2008, 12:58 PM) *
But I am not naive enough to think that any cutting edge experimentation with unimaginable powers such as this, into the unknown, could not be full of unforeseen risks. LIke a cockroach who only sees on ground, and says "it is safe", and does not see the crow swooping down.

also contain lots of buzz words, that are not fully substantiated. There unfortunately is no proof up to date for the existence of parallel universes (even though i really like the theory predicting this) and of course the supercooling of the tube doesn't have anything to do with the state of the particles inside, so there might not be so much of a difference at all. And unimaginable powers? Sorry, but what they do there can clearly be quantified (And: I don't work for CERN nor am I in any way affiliated smile.gif ).

I agree though, that unforseen effects have turned up over and over in history, there is no 100% safe experiment. To shut down any future experiment based on these facts though, would be contrary to human nature imho, exploration is one of the main driving factors in many people's lives. A good piece of caution is required everywhere.
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FrankW
post Sep 15 2008, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (mjsteps @ Sep 15 2008, 10:02 AM) *
HERE IS THE BENEFIT: TO EMBRACE THE SECULAR HUMANISTS POINT OF VIEW.


What the hell is that supposed to mean?

CODE
name='fkalich' post='258840' date='Sep 15 2008, 11:58 AM']I have not seen any evidence than anyone here but myself has read extensively on the subject, just sounds mostly like BS artists throwing around buzz words.


The Chill Out Room is supposed to be a place where people can BS, laugh, and yeah, possibly learn something. It's hard to learn from someone though, who is arrogant and sarcastic in nature. You lost me after your first sentence.
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Rolls
post Sep 16 2008, 02:40 AM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Sep 15 2008, 12:33 PM) *
What the hell is that supposed to mean?

CODE
name='fkalich' post='258840' date='Sep 15 2008, 11:58 AM']I have not seen any evidence than anyone here but myself has read extensively on the subject, just sounds mostly like BS artists throwing around buzz words.


The Chill Out Room is supposed to be a place where people can BS, laugh, and yeah, possibly learn something. It's hard to learn from someone though, who is arrogant and sarcastic in nature. You lost me after your first sentence.



wow, nice.....but is this chillin' haahhaha
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Saoirse O'Shea
post Sep 16 2008, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Sep 15 2008, 03:33 PM) *
The Chill Out Room is supposed to be a place where people can BS, laugh, and yeah, possibly learn something.


Very true - so lets all chill and not start shouting at each other and being rude to other individuals.

Cheers,
Tony


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Jesse
post Sep 16 2008, 01:39 PM
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Go tony with his Italic writing .. YEEEHAW!


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Muris Varajic
post Sep 16 2008, 01:48 PM
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That's just our good old Fkalich,
he writes like that but I'm sure he had no bad intense whatsoever. smile.gif


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Sep 16 2008, 03:37 PM
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Jesse - I use bold italics when I'm posting with my moderator's hat on wink.gif. So my post is literally to ask everyone to chill it before I have to take action cool.gif .

And I think you're spot on there Muris smile.gif - my intervention wasn't aimed at him btw.

Back on topic:
Personally I agree with much of what fkalich says concerning the predictability of a 'novel' event. By its very nature as novel it is not forecastable. By its very nature as novel it is no better 'known' and 'understood' from within a scientific paradigm then from within any other paradigm..

A numerical valuation is based on a comparison of similarity - a 'difference in degree' as Gilles Deleuze calls it (and before Deleuze Leibniz). A novel event has no precursor, nothing to compare it with; everything that we understand and know is different to what is novel fundamentally as the later is a 'difference in kind' to what 'is'. To put a numerical value on the likelihood of a novel event occurring is absurd. As fkalich says he is as well placed as anyone else, including scientists, to make such a prediction because none of us have any better position to act as a basis for arbiter of truth and value of a novel event. Humanity do not have an Archimedian point from which to judge. That science has done so reflects both the paradigm that it currently exists within and, relatedly, how science believes generally that everything is reducible to a difference in degree within a limited mathematical infinity.

On how absurd it is - I contend that the chance is not 1 in 50 Million but 1 in 50,000,001. Phew the world is now a safer place rolleyes.gif .

Cheers,
Tony


BTW - Fkalich was the quote you referred to in your first post the one from Robert Oppenheimer when he witnessed the Trinity Atomic Bomb test, 'I am become death, the destroyer of worlds'? That is, if memory serves me correctly, the 'father' of the A Bomb who also originally thought that Atomic energy would provide for free, clean, sustainable energy but later recanted on this and lobbied long and hard against...


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fkalich
post Sep 16 2008, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Sep 16 2008, 07:48 AM) *
That's just our good old Fkalich,
he writes like that but I'm sure he had no bad intense whatsoever. smile.gif


Muris has a good read.

I figured this out yesterday. I think this is interesting. A person should really try to understand Relativity before that other stuff. Actually I think you have to look at a lot of it mathematically, no other way.

I never fully understood why you could not go faster than the the speed of light. Why the equation E=mc^2 implied you approach infinite mass when you do so. Turns out, the equation does not imply that. Einstein went back to Newton mechanics for that. Maybe some math guy out here will say "elementary my dear fkalich" but I find this interesting. An object's energy in E=mc^2 does not mean just nuclear energy. It means all energy, ncluding Kinetic. I had assumed E was just nuclear energy. I expect most others also have that false assumption.

The key is this formula which tells you that as speed approaches infinity, the Kinetic energy approaches infinity. E_k = \frac{m c^2}{\sqrt{1 - (v/c)^2}} - m c^2 .

So going back to E=mc^2, we flip that around, m= E/c^2. Well as we approach the speed of light, we know from above the E goes to infinity, so M must also go to infinity.

What always threw me was the speed of light (c^2) in the formula. It has no significance here at all for that equation, it is a constant, and just is ignored as you go to infinity. No matter how big, the biggest number you can imagine is insignificant as you approach infinity.

Now I was trying to figure out why gravitational mass and inertial mass are equivalent. General Relativity is grounded in that. Turns out nobody knows, it is not a matter of theory. It is an assumption, because that is just the way it always appears. Einstein just assumed it.

I read a lot on this kind of thing. Books. Wikipedia helps to supplement this. Probably nothing bad happens in the next few years. But the time may come. I don't trust scientists like most people seem to. Anymore than politicians or anyone else. I think that confidence is misplaced. You can't always count on a whistle blower to show up.


Someone above said they don't believe in parallel universes. See, the concept of space itself is just connected with matter. Without matter, there is no space. It is not like there is this space and all this matter in it like a box. Space is tied to matter, without matter, there is no space. In the beginning with the singularity, what was there? You can't even say there was nothing. This stuff gets real weird. I am just speculating here, but I don't think we would think of them exactly as parallel. That is probably a bad term for it. Matter creates its own space. That does not mean 2 Universes are side by side in a spacial sense. I would think that on this level, the laws of physics as we know them all break down, you can't look at these things in terms of the laws of physics that rule our universe. At least that seems reasonable to me. Just be glad anti-fkalich has not joined GMC forum.
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Jeff
post Sep 16 2008, 03:54 PM
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Me - No time for a black hole just yet. I am still working on Marcus Lavendell's lessons. When those are complete I will be ready to leave this planet. Well, actually I would like to hit the Taco Bell drive through first and get a number 1 (Burrito Supreme, Taco Supreme + Large Mountain Dew) to take with me. Since we don't really know what's in these black holes, I may get hungry! biggrin.gif

Oh yeah, gotta charge the iPod too.
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Saoirse O'Shea
post Sep 16 2008, 04:01 PM
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Jeff - do we really know what's in a Taco Bell either (and perhaps more importantly would we ever really want to know wink.gif )?

Cheers,
Tony


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fkalich
post Sep 16 2008, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Sep 16 2008, 09:37 AM) *
BTW - Fkalich was the quote you referred to in your first post the one from Robert Oppenheimer when he witnessed the Trinity Atomic Bomb test, 'I am become death, the destroyer of worlds'? That is, if memory serves me correctly, the 'father' of the A Bomb who also originally thought that Atomic energy would provide for free, clean, sustainable energy but later recanted on this and lobbied long and hard against...


I love that quote. Most of those scientists were pretty high minded ethically, but it was hard to resist working with the top minds on the top project in the world.

The guy who said that was an Italian I think, or an Italian name.

My oldest brother said to me one time, he feels we should not have dropped it, because it has left that image of that singular mushroom as the image people have of what we are dealing with. That they just don't really conceive of magnitude the destructive power of what they are dealing with. If they did, they would work harder to try and get rid of these things.
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Jeff
post Sep 16 2008, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Sep 16 2008, 10:01 AM) *
Jeff - do we really know what's in a Taco Bell either (and perhaps more importantly would we ever really want to know wink.gif )?

Cheers,
Tony


That's the beauty of it, Tony! You see, the three things that would survive are 1.) Taco Bell food products, 2.) Twinkies and 3.) cockroaches! I am thinking that consuming Taco Bell get's you the food and cockroaches all at once. And, nothing can destory a Twinkie. Plus, they all taste great! biggrin.gif
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