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> A Question On Modes
Jeff0803
post Sep 15 2008, 03:00 AM
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Hey Dave, I love your lessons on modes. Theyre starting to really help me get out of the basic major and minor rut Ive been in, but I have a question that might be sort of dumb. I know that some modes are better for soloing over major keys, and some are better for minor. Dorion, Phrygan, and Aeolian are the minor and Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian major. If your playing in the key of C major can you play an A Dorion or A Phrygian mode over it because its the relative minor, or do you have to stay with the major modes. Same thing vice versa, if your playing an Am, can you play C Lydian or Mixolydian? I hope my questions clear, thanks for any response.


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kjutte
post Sep 15 2008, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE (Jeff0803 @ Sep 15 2008, 04:00 AM) *
Hey Dave, I love your lessons on modes. Theyre starting to really help me get out of the basic major and minor rut Ive been in, but I have a question that might be sort of dumb. I know that some modes are better for soloing over major keys, and some are better for minor. Dorion, Phrygan, and Aeolian are the minor and Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian major. If your playing in the key of C major can you play an A Dorion or A Phrygian mode over it because its the relative minor, or do you have to stay with the major modes. Same thing vice versa, if your playing an Am, can you play C Lydian or Mixolydian? I hope my questions clear, thanks for any response.


It doesn't work like this.

Cmaj has 7 degrees. All of the modes are within them, though they are relative modes.
to make this easier to understand, let me put it like this.

If you have a song in C maj, (ionian), it will have 7 modal chords.

Cmaj (ionian)
Dmin (dorian)
Emin (phrygian)
Fmaj (Lydian)
Gmaj (mixolydian)
Amin (Aeolian or natural minor)
Bdim (locrian)

These are the degrees of Cionian, or natural major.
However, if you wanted to play in Clydian, these chord's intervals would change, because the rootnotes change.
And that, is modulation, to change the rootnotes.

So, if we were to use Clydian as our mode, the full chord diagram would be like this:

Cmaj
Dmaj
Emin
F#dim
Gmaj
Amin
Bmin

If you notice, this is the same row, but the difference is that we start on the 4th degree of major's intervals instead.
Also, if you know the majorscale, you will see, if you go through its 7 patterns, that the chords (1 3 and 5th note) will cohere with the scalepatterns.

I hope this helped

And sorry for butting in Walli, but I can't help it biggrin.gif
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Jeff0803
post Sep 17 2008, 04:04 AM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Sep 15 2008, 01:23 PM) *
It doesn't work like this.

Cmaj has 7 degrees. All of the modes are within them, though they are relative modes.
to make this easier to understand, let me put it like this.

If you have a song in C maj, (ionian), it will have 7 modal chords.

Cmaj (ionian)
Dmin (dorian)
Emin (phrygian)
Fmaj (Lydian)
Gmaj (mixolydian)
Amin (Aeolian or natural minor)
Bdim (locrian)

These are the degrees of Cionian, or natural major.
However, if you wanted to play in Clydian, these chord's intervals would change, because the rootnotes change.
And that, is modulation, to change the rootnotes.

So, if we were to use Clydian as our mode, the full chord diagram would be like this:

Cmaj
Dmaj
Emin
F#dim
Gmaj
Amin
Bmin

If you notice, this is the same row, but the difference is that we start on the 4th degree of major's intervals instead.
Also, if you know the majorscale, you will see, if you go through its 7 patterns, that the chords (1 3 and 5th note) will cohere with the scalepatterns.

I hope this helped

And sorry for butting in Walli, but I can't help it biggrin.gif


Now Im really confused. Are these "degrees" the type of scales I use? Are you saying that If im playing in the key of C major and start playing an Em scale that Im playing the Phrgian mode, or if Im still in the key of C maj and I play a G major scale thats the Mixolydian mode? So really Ill i needed to know was how to play the major and minor scales. A C Lydian mode would just be a C major scale on top of the key of G? Im sorry Im still learning haha

This post has been edited by Jeff0803: Sep 17 2008, 04:06 AM


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Ramiro Delforte
post Sep 17 2008, 05:05 AM
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C Ionian - C D E F G A B C = Cmaj7-9-11-13

D Dorian - D E F G A B C D = Dm7-9-11-13

E Phrygian- E F G A B C D E = Em7-b9-11-b13

F Lydian - F G A B C D E F = Fmaj7-9#11-13

G Mixolydian - G A B C D E F G = G7-9-11-13

A Eolian - A B C D E F G A = Am7-9-11-b13

B Locrian - B C D E F G A B = Bm7(b5)-b9-11-b13

Modes in the jazz theory are a bunch of notes and nothing else. The real sound of modes you can find it in popular music of the XIV and XV century and in eclesiastic music from VI centruy until XIII approx.
In this theory you can use different modes in different chords but this is like using another major scale over the same chord. For example: over Cmaj7 you can use C Ionian (C major) and C Lydian (G major). This kind of theory is used to think some modal jazz like "So What" or "Passion Dance" but is kind of useless to think that way when you play over a tonal tune like "Autumm Leaves". Anyway you can use it.

The useful way of this theory is when you have a modal comping like Am - F/A - G/A - Am. You can think now in A eolian and not in Am.

So now you can think all modes starting in one note.

C Ionian - C D E F G A B C = Cmaj7-9-11-13

C Dorian - C D Eb F G A Bb C = Dm7-9-11-13 (Bb major scale)

C Phrygian- C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C = Em7-b9-11-b13 (Ab major scale)

C Lydian - C D E F# G A B C = Fmaj7-9#11-13 (G major scale)

C Mixolydian - C D E F G A Bb C = G7-9-11-13 (F major scale)

C Eolian - C D Eb F G A Bb C = Am7-9-11-b13 (Eb major scale)

C Locrian - C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C = Bm7(b5)-b9-11-b13 (Db major scale)

I hope this little explanation would clarify a little. biggrin.gif


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kjutte
post Sep 17 2008, 11:07 AM
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QUOTE (Jeff0803 @ Sep 17 2008, 05:04 AM) *
Now Im really confused. Are these "degrees" the type of scales I use? Are you saying that If im playing in the key of C major and start playing an Em scale that Im playing the Phrgian mode, or if Im still in the key of C maj and I play a G major scale thats the Mixolydian mode? So really Ill i needed to know was how to play the major and minor scales. A C Lydian mode would just be a C major scale on top of the key of G? Im sorry Im still learning haha


No, I said it like that so it would be easier for you to see the progress of patterns and chords.
To really modulate, you have to change the rootnotes - but sure, to *LEARN* the fretboard, think of it as Emin, F#locrian, Gionian etc.

The first step is really to learn the fretboard fingerings, after that it's ALOTTTT easier to learn about chords and modes.
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David Wallimann
post Oct 4 2008, 01:12 AM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Sep 17 2008, 06:07 AM) *
No, I said it like that so it would be easier for you to see the progress of patterns and chords.
To really modulate, you have to change the rootnotes - but sure, to *LEARN* the fretboard, think of it as Emin, F#locrian, Gionian etc.

The first step is really to learn the fretboard fingerings, after that it's ALOTTTT easier to learn about chords and modes.



Great explanation, thanks! :-)


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