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> American/european Notation Difference? Grrrr..., Why H instead of B? Should I re-learn everything?
Jakub Luptovec
post Sep 27 2008, 11:31 AM
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I just started taking live guitar lessons.. And I stumbled on quite a few problems with theory. Not only they name the modes in ohter ways - Ijol instead of Aeolian, Lydic instead of Lydian (they put stres on letter "c") etc.

But the main issue I have is, that They have note H instead of B - and B is Bb in Czech Republic ( i guess that we are not the only country in Europe with this error..). To be exact, the notes are C,Db,D,Eb,E,F,Gb,G,Ab,A,B,H,Cb,C

Also, 7b5 chord is called "the average" and instead of Em7 (for example), my teacher writes it as E-7. He notes Minor as minus sing..

What the heck is that? I know, that theory differs, but why that much? Why diffent notes?

And he (my teacher) totally destroyed me, when he argued that for example notes Eb and D# are actually different notes - that they somehow differ on fretless instruments, so when talking about intervals, in C Major scale, augumented 4th would be F#, and diminished 5th would be Gb.

I feel like total guitar noob...

What should I do now? Relearn everything? sad.gif My guitar self-esteem is on bottom, because I have problems with playing single chord now.. sad.gif

This post has been edited by Jakub Luptovec: Sep 27 2008, 11:34 AM


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kjutte
post Sep 27 2008, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Sep 27 2008, 12:31 PM) *
I just started taking live guitar lessons.. And I stumbled on quite a few problems with theory. Not only they name the modes in ohter ways - Ijol instead of Aeolian, Lydic instead of Lydian (they put stres on letter "c") etc.

But the main issue I have is, that They have note H instead of B - and B is Bb in Czech Republic ( i guess that we are not the only country in Europe with this error..). To be exact, the notes are C,Db,D,Eb,E,F,Gb,G,Ab,A,B,H,Cb,C

Also, 7b5 chord is called "the average" and instead of Em7 (for example), my teacher writes it as E-7. He notes Minor as minus sing..

What the heck is that? I know, that theory differs, but why that much? Why diffent notes?

And he (my teacher) totally destroyed me, when he argued that for example notes Eb and D# are actually different notes - that they somehow differ on fretless instruments, so when talking about intervals, in C Major scale, augumented 4th would be F#, and diminished 5th would be Gb.

I feel like total guitar noob...

What should I do now? Relearn everything? sad.gif My guitar self-esteem is on bottom, because I have problems with playing single chord now.. sad.gif


Use what you feel is the easiest to grasp.
Personally I like to use, example: D7 for dominant, Dmaj7 & Dm7, because it clearly shows the chord's characteristic.

And honestly, thinking B instead of H isn't hard...

The neck only has 12 notes, don't make this harder than it is.
No matter what your teacher says, the guitar has 12 notes. Don't worry about this.

Sure, you can have A# and Bb as different notes, but then it would be very near, and the tuning of all the instruments would have to be fretless.
This won't be an issue with guitar.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Sep 27 2008, 11:45 AM
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Marcus Siepen
post Sep 27 2008, 12:03 PM
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Thats one of the reasons why I prefer to use my ears instead of my eyes when it comes to music wink.gif


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audiopaal
post Sep 27 2008, 01:33 PM
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QUOTE (Marcus Siepen @ Sep 27 2008, 01:03 PM) *
Thats one of the reasons why I prefer to use my ears instead of my eyes when it comes to music wink.gif


I know what you mean biggrin.gif
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Matt23
post Sep 27 2008, 01:45 PM
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Maybe you could find another teacher. I never realised music was written differently in some places.
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Marcus Lavendell
post Sep 27 2008, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Sep 27 2008, 12:31 PM) *
They have note H instead of B - and B is Bb in Czech Republic ( i guess that we are not the only country in Europe with this error..)

Yes, it's the same in Sweden. We say H instead of B.

I don't know if this is true but I've heard an explination for this: - that it was a mistake smile.gif
Some guy wrote down the notation theory to spread it to other countries, and the B simply looked like a H with his fancy hand writing. So it's all a big mistake biggrin.gif

... as I said, I don't know if it's true. But this is the explination/speculation I heard from the music academy here. smile.gif


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ZakkWylde
post Sep 27 2008, 02:35 PM
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It was messed up by German Monks in medieval times^^
Monks were the only people who could read and write in the medieval times so they were not only reading and copying books and letters by hand; they also copied musical sheets (for example the Camina Burana).
The H note comes from their sloppy handwriting because in the old german handwriting letters of small h and a small b look very identical...some monks copied the music sheets with the original b note and mistake the b with an h and there we go...it goes on because it was written down^^

Now some european countries have the unlogical note name for their scale: C D E F G A H(which should have been cool.gif C

the h note is the same as the b note from a standard notation. For some reason the flat version of an h note isn't called Hes (Ais if you go a half step up from A) it is called b and this b in european notation stands for A-sharp or B-flat.
That's why there is so much confusion between the two notations AFAIK


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Muris Varajic
post Sep 27 2008, 02:51 PM
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I actually don't believe it's a mistake,
more like some mixed approach.
Alphabet goes like A B C D E F G.
But if we take C as a starting point and still wanna keep A,
then we have C D E F G H ,with A between G and H.
Confusing indeed but notation is luckily still the same,
problem is just in pronouncing. smile.gif


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Alex87
post Sep 27 2008, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (ZakkWylde @ Sep 27 2008, 03:35 PM) *
It was messed up by German Monks in medieval times^^
Monks were the only people who could read and write in the medieval times so they were not only reading and copying books and letters by hand; they also copied musical sheets (for example the Camina Burana).
The H note comes from their sloppy handwriting because in the old german handwriting letters of small h and a small b look very identical...some monks copied the music sheets with the original b note and mistake the b with an h and there we go...it goes on because it was written down^^

Now some european countries have the unlogical note name for their scale: C D E F G A H(which should have been cool.gif C

the h note is the same as the b note from a standard notation. For some reason the flat version of an h note isn't called Hes (Ais if you go a half step up from A) it is called b and this b in european notation stands for A-sharp or B-flat.
That's why there is so much confusion between the two notations AFAIK


I agree with you on this one. That it was a mistake done by the monks misreading and/or misspelling the B note and made it H instead. It's been used ever since in northen Europe; Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and more countries.
I know in denmark in music schools they at least teach you that it was a mistake, however I ain't sure there are any people alive to this day to say i was there when it happended wink.gif


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Jakub Luptovec
post Sep 27 2008, 03:43 PM
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Thanks guys:) At least I know, that I am not the wrong one, cos my teachers opinion on the B/H Issue was that "those stupid americans always have to have something different"..


@Marcus Siepen / good advice:P The only problem is, that my ears really cant hear difference between notes => i dont have perfect pitch:(

This post has been edited by Jakub Luptovec: Sep 27 2008, 03:44 PM


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kyldeee
post Sep 27 2008, 03:46 PM
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Yeah, In Finland we also use the H letter, I don't tho smile.gif
B makes more sense to me smile.gif

I don't think it matters tho as long as you know that B is H, and vice versa...

This post has been edited by kyldeee: Sep 27 2008, 03:47 PM


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Jakub Luptovec
post Sep 27 2008, 03:53 PM
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Well it can make quite a racket, especially, when you are supposed to improvise over backing track, and teacher gives you chords (including cool.gif and then yells at you, that you cant play in key biggrin.gif


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kyldeee
post Sep 27 2008, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Sep 27 2008, 03:53 PM) *
Well it can make quite a racket, especially, when you are supposed to improvise over backing track, and teacher gives you chords (including cool.gif and then yells at you, that you cant play in key biggrin.gif

So, your saying that H is a whole different note than the B huh.gif I always thought that it was just that the name that we referred the note with, but the note stayed the same, what ever you called it sad.gif Oh man, I'm screwed

This post has been edited by kyldeee: Sep 27 2008, 03:57 PM


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Jakub Luptovec
post Sep 27 2008, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE
So, your saying that H is a whole different note than the B huh.gif I always thought that it was just that the name that we referred the note with, but the note stayed the same, what ever you called it sad.gif Oh man, I'm screwed



Well, I for me, B is B, for my teacher, B is A# smile.gif


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kjutte
post Sep 27 2008, 04:44 PM
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QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Sep 27 2008, 04:43 PM) *
Thanks guys:) At least I know, that I am not the wrong one, cos my teachers opinion on the B/H Issue was that "those stupid americans always have to have something different"..


@Marcus Siepen / good advice:P The only problem is, that my ears really cant hear difference between notes => i dont have perfect pitch:(


that's called relative pitch. perfect is being able to hear any note without comparison.

QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Sep 27 2008, 05:35 PM) *
Well, I for me, B is B, for my teacher, B is A# smile.gif


Again, the guitar only has 12 notes so this doesn't matter at all.
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Jose Mena
post Sep 27 2008, 04:48 PM
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Man, didn't know about H. I learned everything in spanish which means Do, Re, Mi .... etc, for note durations it was redonda=whole, blanca=half, negra=quarter, corchea=eight, etc. Then sharps were sostenido, flats were bemol (I guess that is where the b comes from)

When I moved to the States, I had a hard time relating Sol to G, and often when seeing the letters I had to think for a while, didn't take much time though, they were simply different names for the same thing.

As far as D# being different than Eb, I had a music teacher that same the same thing, he said something like "on the piano they are the same, but on other instruments they are not"

Well I turned out to be somewhat of a geek, and I know that what makes C a C is certain amount of air pressure oscillations. A common one that most people now is 440 oscillations per second make an A (440 Hz), and 466.16Hz is an A# or a Bb. I don't have perfect pitch either, but I can get a hold of an oscilloscope with a mic connected to it. I would like to go back to my teacher and have him play for me an A# and then a Bb and measure the frequencies, maybe they are a little off from 466.16Hz, but I am pretty sure they will be close to this value if the instrument is well tuned. I would like for him to explain to me the difference, my view there is none, even your tuner will tell you so.

Sorry for the long science class, but the point I am trying to make is that any theory can be challenged if you have enough facts to support your own, that is why there are still books being different about the same stuff from a different point of view.

Some people have learned something some way, and stick to it, I personally like to see things my own way, and have in my mind my own way of understanding things, somewhat different from what a teacher explained to me.

My advice is, make music, follow what makes the most sense to you, follow your ears, if you want it to be different, then it is, if not it isn't

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Ramiro Delforte
post Sep 27 2008, 05:08 PM
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About the note names here is a link that could explain some of your doubts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note#History_of_note_names

And here is a link about what is the real tuning of the notes in a couple of different systems of intonation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_intervals

I hope it was useful.

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Jakub Luptovec
post Sep 27 2008, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Sep 27 2008, 05:44 PM) *
that's called relative pitch. perfect is being able to hear any note without comparison.



Again, the guitar only has 12 notes so this doesn't matter at all.


Well.. Altough this doesnt matter on paper, in theory.. still 12 tones, but the trick is the double meaning of the note "b" which means, that in middle/eastern europe you always have to think, who you are talking to - if he uses american-correct (having B note) or european (having H note)set of notes.

To show you it from my own experience...

Imagine some improvisation gig, where you get chords of the backing right on stage, and you have some B chord there - this situation actually happened to me - and you start wondering, if the bassist is flat-tuned by mistake, or there is misprint in the chord or they just ment A#.

While it doesnt "make or brake", its still disturbing and annoying..

@ Jose Mena (sorry for misspronouncing:P): No need to be sorry for science class:P I wanted an answer which you are giving:) Thanks for your input smile.gif (and everybode else as well, ofc smile.gif )

This post has been edited by Jakub Luptovec: Sep 27 2008, 05:36 PM


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Muris Varajic
post Sep 27 2008, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (kyldeee @ Sep 27 2008, 04:56 PM) *
So, your saying that H is a whole different note than the B huh.gif I always thought that it was just that the name that we referred the note with, but the note stayed the same, what ever you called it sad.gif Oh man, I'm screwed


H and B are the same note. smile.gif


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kjutte
post Sep 27 2008, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Sep 27 2008, 06:30 PM) *
Well.. Altough this doesnt matter on paper, in theory.. still 12 tones, but the trick is the double meaning of the note "b" which means, that in middle/eastern europe you always have to think, who you are talking to - if he uses american-correct (having B note) or european (having H note)set of notes.

To show you it from my own experience...

Imagine some improvisation gig, where you get chords of the backing right on stage, and you have some B chord there - this situation actually happened to me - and you start wondering, if the bassist is flat-tuned by mistake, or there is misprint in the chord or they just ment A#.

While it doesnt "make or brake", its still disturbing and annoying..

@ Jose Mena (sorry for misspronouncing:P): No need to be sorry for science class:P I wanted an answer which you are giving:) Thanks for your input smile.gif (and everybode else as well, ofc smile.gif )


yes, definitely. You need to be familiar with the backing in advance.
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