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> Musical Prodigy And Natural Talent.
resilientguitari...
post Oct 7 2008, 05:17 PM
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my question for all you all is weather or not you think natural talent and musical ability are born with or if you make it for yourself. I mean 'natural' obviously implies with the fact it was given by birth but i read a bunch of stuff by Beck and Gilbert and tehy both say anyone can make it where they are with practice. i mean granted if u suck at cordination and u are slow at learning these are obvious handicaps but i just was wondering if any of you guys thought that musical talent is more of something you aquire through determination rather then being born with it. I mean check the movie august rush i kinda enjoyed it but it was a load of bull when it came to somone on guitar. no person however gifter could pick up a guitar and be amazing. well anyway hope u guys got some answers biggrin.gif
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jer
post Oct 7 2008, 05:23 PM
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I think that anything that can be tied to art, like music, and therefore playing something on an instrument (that someone wants to listen to) is affected by innate ability.

I'm not saying it cannot be learned. But I think that some folks are born with artistic tendencies and some arent.

And those tendencies are VERY helpful when learning music. Therefore allowing that person to go further quicker and easier.

Anyone with the dexterity can learn to shred.

It takes a certain mindset to create music. And that mindset is hard to achieve (though possible) without some innate ability.

Thats just my .02. I'm no expert.



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resilientguitari...
post Oct 7 2008, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 7 2008, 05:23 PM) *
I think that anything that can be tied to art, like music, and therefore playing something on an instrument (that someone wants to listen to) is affected by innate ability.

I'm not saying it cannot be learned. But I think that some folks are born with artistic tendencies and some arent.

And those tendencies are VERY helpful when learning music. Therefore allowing that person to go further quicker and easier.

Anyone with the dexterity can learn to shred.

It takes a certain mindset to create music. And that mindset is hard to achieve (though possible) without some innate ability.

Thats just my .02. I'm no expert.


ok thanks, i was just wondering biggrin.gif
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jer
post Oct 7 2008, 05:33 PM
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Thats just my opinion though. I have no training in any such matters.

I just think it makes sense that some people take to certain things easier than others.


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post Oct 7 2008, 05:47 PM
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Well, there are many different aspects to being a musician. If you want to be a technically good guitarist, that requires different kinds of talent than being a good composer for example. Of course being a technically good guitarist will help the composer part and vice versa, but still.
And when you talk about being born with natural talent, I think that also depends pretty much on what you mean. Do you mean your hearing ability or your coordination for example? I can say I am a pretty good guitarist, but I wouldn't say I am incredibly fast and that everybody would turn around gaping if I started to play. But still, I think I'll develop pretty much with hard practice. (Hard to develop a lot with all the instruments I'm playing though tongue.gif). Thinking of hearing ability, I think that for example perfect pitch still can be developed after being 7 years old, at least before you're fully grown. I started playing guitar at 14 years old and developed perfect pitch while doing that as I transposed a great load of music and learned everything by ear. At least perfect relative pitch, as Steve Vai calls it. He transposed alot of music and in the end he was able to identify notes and all that stuff tongue.gif


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Kristofer Dahl
post Oct 7 2008, 06:06 PM
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Talent is the most miss used word ever.

To me, it is either used as a synonymy to "skilled" or by someone who does not understand the mechanics of self improvement.

Not once have I encountered a student who hasn't been able to deal with a problem (which they often themselves misunderstand as lack of talent).

I have met students with serious technical or "musical" problems - and for everyone of these cases have I questioned my own perspective. However these problem students have always been able to fix their problem - provided they were prepared to re-learn.

Personal success - in any department - is about daring to constantly question your own truths/judgment. If you have collected enough evidence to prove yourself wrong - then is your chance to improve. Unfortunately many people rather turn their back at this and say they can't improve because they don't have enough talent for it (of course re-learning requires lots of time and effort - it is much easier to say you simply weren't born for it).

Some people even blame others for their failure which to me is even worse!

The faster you can change direction - the quicker you will improve. If you are persistent you might even end up being described as talented! wink.gif

My opinion on this is... probably old news. But it is still one of my favorite topics, I think about it everyday as I constantly try to improve! A good day for me is when I have realized that I have been doing something wrong - because I know will be a little better the following day!


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Jesse
post Oct 7 2008, 06:13 PM
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I don't know if the right word is talented, but I do think, not bragging, that I pick up thing's fast.


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Nemanja Filipovi...
post Oct 7 2008, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Oct 7 2008, 07:06 PM) *
A good day for me is when I have realized that I have been doing something wrong - because I know will be a little better the following day!

Well sad Kris.I watched so many people that where called "not-talent" that made so much out of them self.I know to many professors at the music school I went,that used that word to many times.:"oh,you are so talented,future is bright for you",all tough that can bust up your will for practice,it could all so bring you down so low when you realise that the main thin for making something is practice,practice practice.


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Jesse
post Oct 7 2008, 06:23 PM
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QUOTE (Nemanja Filipovic @ Oct 7 2008, 07:21 PM) *
Well sad Kris.I watched so many people that where called "not-talent" that made so much out of them self.I know to many professors at the music school I went,that used that word to many times.:"oh,you are so talented,future is bright for you",all tough that can bust up your will for practice,it could all so bring you down so low when you realise that the main thin for making something is practice,practice practice.

... that might have affected my practice too..... they should actually say you should improve ( not that you suck) so you get motivated:P Here too... but that was mostly my blues soloing:P So... practicing more hard rock/shred like stuff now too!


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GuitarsANDtattoo...
post Oct 7 2008, 06:24 PM
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Since joining GMC I've had to relearn a lot of stuff, but I've successfully made those changes and am currently working on others at present. Redefining what "talent" means has helped a lot in that direction as well.

Yeah, I think the idea that the word "talent" is often taken for the word "skilled" is very true. I like knowing that there is always a way around certain problems we encounter, for me it's music and what I would like to do better. I get stuck sometimes, but I know I can by certain things w/out much trouble provided that I work at it enough.


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Jesse
post Oct 7 2008, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE (GuitarsANDtattoos @ Oct 7 2008, 07:24 PM) *
Since joining GMC I've had to relearn a lot of stuff, but I've successfully made those changes and am currently working on others at present. Redefining what "talent" means has helped a lot in that direction as well.

Yeah, I think the idea that the word "talent" is often taken for the word "skilled" is very true. I like knowing that there is always a way around certain problems we encounter, for me it's music and what I would like to do better. I get stuck sometimes, but I know I can by certain things w/out much trouble provided that I work at it enough.

Is that dave navarro...? He pisses me off xD Saw a video of Dave Mustaine learning him the spider riffs and I was like.. DUDE I did that the first week after I learned my first power-chord... omg!


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Kristofer Dahl
post Oct 7 2008, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (Jesse @ Oct 7 2008, 07:13 PM) *
I don't know if the right word is talented, but I do think, not bragging, that I pick up thing's fast.


Perhaps you are simply smart?


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Jesse
post Oct 7 2008, 06:30 PM
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... yes I am xD no, but I mean musically, like timing's, certain types of phrasing..


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Kristofer Dahl
post Oct 7 2008, 06:36 PM
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QUOTE (Nemanja Filipovic @ Oct 7 2008, 07:21 PM) *
Well sad Kris.I watched so many people that where called "not-talent" that made so much out of them self.I know to many professors at the music school I went,that used that word to many times.:"oh,you are so talented,future is bright for you",all tough that can bust up your will for practice,it could all so bring you down so low when you realise that the main thin for making something is practice,practice practice.


The term talent reigns like a unquestioned god in the old-school department - in fact a majority of the worlds' teachers/instructors/professors/whatever would of course never agree with me.

Including my music teacher who called me untalented, and including my parents who told me I shouldn't attempt singing.

Did I listen to the words of my genes? Never! I sat down and practiced and I still do in this very moment.

Of course someone taller than me will be able to take larger steps - but that doesn't mean I can't learn to run fast as **** And music certainly isn't a bpm race.


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Jesse
post Oct 7 2008, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Oct 7 2008, 07:36 PM) *
The term talent reigns like a unquestioned god in the old-school department - in fact a majority of the worlds' teachers/instructors/professors/whatever would of course never agree with me.

Including my music teacher who called me untalented, and including my parents who told me I shouldn't attempt singing.

Did I listen to the words of my genes? Never! I sat down and practiced and I still do in this very moment.

Of course someone taller than me will be able to take larger steps - but that doesn't mean I can't learn to run fast as **** And music certainly isn't a bpm race.

..... Sorry, I lol'd. Just how you mentioned it, I kind of like your singing!


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Kristofer Dahl
post Oct 7 2008, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (Jesse @ Oct 7 2008, 07:40 PM) *
..... Sorry, I lol'd. Just how you mentioned it, I kind of like your singing!


Well you would have lol'ed even harder if you had heard me before I started practicing! biggrin.gif


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Jose Mena
post Oct 7 2008, 06:53 PM
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I really don't know if talent exists, but there are some people that seem to pick up things faster. For instance I had a friend that tried learning to play bass when we were teenagers, and I remember specifically we were trying to play the trooper, he asked me "How many times do I hit this note".

I don't know how many here are familiar with this song, but I never thought it was necessary to count, I didn't know if I was playing triplets or 16th notes. I just felt it.

Him on the other hand had to concentrate on the timing, he had to count the notes, how many bars on E, how many bars on C, not to say that he couldn't become a good player, but apparently needed to work more than others. Eventually he became a tight bassist, but towards the end gave it up because every time he would look forward to the next milestone on improving his playing it took him a lot of effort. His answer was, "I had no natural talent".

What is it, I don't know, I guess he wasn't interested in music for most of his life and at 15-16 decided he wanted to play bass, maybe the rest of us even if we picked up the instrument at 20, we had been listening and enjoying music for a long time. I still believe you can become good at whatever you want to, it just takes time.


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Kristofer Dahl
post Oct 7 2008, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE (Jose Mena @ Oct 7 2008, 07:53 PM) *
Eventually he became a tight bassist, but towards the end gave it up because every time he would look forward to the next milestone on improving his playing it took him a lot of effort. His answer was, "I had no natural talent"..


Cool input Jose!

I don't know either - but one thing I do know is that most stories to backup the notion of natural talent often are very unscientific.

So for this specific story - do we know if your friend has the same "baggage" as you? In other words has he had music playing in his home since he was a young kid? (and have you?) There are many ways one could practice the sense of "periodicity" - and there also many ways one could have got this ability "for free" as a child.

Oh an by the way I have the worst sense of periodicity in history - in fact I wrote a whole album which almost doesn't contain one single 4/4 beat... I just can't (or couldn't rather, I have been working on that) naturally feel an even beat. (check it out at your own risk).

Of course I never revealed the reason behind those odd beats - we just called it experimental fusion!! biggrin.gif



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Jose Mena
post Oct 7 2008, 07:55 PM
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Kris, common are you messing with us?, you obviously knew what you were playing here, for this you need to keep count, this is not as simple as trooper.

Now I have to ask, what are you doing at around 0:44 on The Green Robot, it sounds different, is it economy picking?, it sounds like alternate but has a different feel.

Back on the subject, yes I guess even though I had picked up the guitar at 12, I had been playing piano before that, attended a music school, and well, I can't really tell how old I was when I became interested in music, it's been my passion forever. My friend on the other hand I believe he one day at age 15 decided to play bass because he heard a Metallica song and liked it, but before that he had no interest in music at all.


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post Oct 7 2008, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Oct 7 2008, 07:36 PM) *
The term talent reigns like a unquestioned god in the old-school department - in fact a majority of the worlds' teachers/instructors/professors/whatever would of course never agree with me.

Including my music teacher who called me untalented, and including my parents who told me I shouldn't attempt singing.

Did I listen to the words of my genes? Never! I sat down and practiced and I still do in this very moment.

Of course someone taller than me will be able to take larger steps - but that doesn't mean I can't learn to run fast as **** And music certainly isn't a bpm race.


When I read this it sounds more to me that what we need to prove is that there is no such thing as inability.


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