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Ignite
post Oct 14 2008, 03:49 AM
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So I want to practice solo writing using mainly modes. I have some simple chords written out in the key of G. It plays a open E chord when the solo begins, but I'm confused on what mode I should play off of? When I play a mode, should it be off of the chord being played? (Like an open E would be E Aeolian)? huh.gif I would really appreciate some help!


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Ramiro Delforte
post Oct 14 2008, 05:01 AM
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If you are playing in G major E would be aeolian. I recommend you that when you are playing in a key you think in key. But if you want to explore the modal sounding you have to recognice the characteristic note of the mode and make it glow among the others, for example: in phrygian is the flat 9th.
I don't fully understand this question "When I play a mode, should it be off of the chord being played? (Like an open E would be E Aeolian)?"
You have to think the mode in vertical way (chord) as horizontal (scale). I give you an example:

D Dorian: D- E- F- G- A- B- C- D
root 9th 3rd 11th 5th 13th 7th
maj min perf perf maj min

So when you see a m7 chord with 9-11-13 the mode is dorian. When you have less notes you have more possibilities. If you have a Em7 you can play E phrygian or E dorian butif you have the b9th in the chord you only can play phrygian.

I hope it was useful.

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Ian Bushell
post Oct 14 2008, 06:27 AM
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Yes it would be E aeolian.
In all 7 box shapes of the modes treat E as your root note to get e aeolian across the fretboard.

As for the other modes, you can play different modes over more than just their corresponding chord.
But like Ramiro mentioned you would have to be careful on how you used them depending on chord tensions used in the progression. For this reason I generally keep the chords simpler and let the scales colour the sound.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Oct 14 2008, 11:16 AM
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If you have E minor chord only in your progression, then you have a couple of choices for modes. For example, E minor can be both:

E Aeolian - G major key
E Dorian - D major key
E Phrygian - C major key

All these three keys are similar to each other, and are called related keys, since they have so many notes that are the same. You can try using your E minor chord as a backing, and play every one of these modes, so you practice your ear to know the difference between different minor type modes. (modes that have a minor third interval from the root).


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Andrew Cockburn
post Oct 14 2008, 02:10 PM
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When composing modally, if you start with a chord progression, you have to make sure that the chord progression is in the mode you want to play because chords and scales are very intimately connected.

For instance, Am7 D7 is a Dorian Progression, C D is a Lydian progression.I f you don't understand why that is, check out my Chords for Scales lesson smile.gif


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kjutte
post Oct 14 2008, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE (Ignite @ Oct 14 2008, 04:49 AM) *
So I want to practice solo writing using mainly modes. I have some simple chords written out in the key of G. It plays a open E chord when the solo begins, but I'm confused on what mode I should play off of? When I play a mode, should it be off of the chord being played? (Like an open E would be E Aeolian)? huh.gif I would really appreciate some help!


If you write a standard modal chord progression, it would all be in one mode.

You say your chords are mostly of Gmajor. Well, Emin happens to be the relative minor of Gmaj, so an Em chord would be fitting in your G maj progression.

Gmaj, Amin, Bb min, Cmaj Dmaj Emin F#dim would be the entire progression.
For all of these chords, you can use:

Gionian
Adorian
Bphrygian
Clydian
Dmixolydian
Eaeolian
F#locrian

However you have to define the root for it to be called modulation.
All of the above-stated modes carry the same notes, so as I said, it's not modulation at this stage.

It all depends on how you write your chord progression.

And of course, like Andrew said, if you want to play in for example dorian, which is a somewhat funky scale, I + IV would be nice.

Which is a minor + dominant chord.

Or maybe for phrygian, I + IV which in this case would be two minors. Phrygian, and the aeolian degree.

There are lots of options, go with what you think expresses you best.



This post has been edited by kjutte: Oct 14 2008, 02:46 PM
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OrganisedConfusi...
post Oct 14 2008, 02:38 PM
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I have absolutely no idea what notes to use when I write a solo. I just go 100% off what I hear in my head and tab it out. I wouldn't know where to start with what scales I can play biggrin.gif


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kjutte
post Oct 14 2008, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Oct 14 2008, 03:38 PM) *
I have absolutely no idea what notes to use when I write a solo. I just go 100% off what I hear in my head and tab it out. I wouldn't know where to start with what scales I can play biggrin.gif


Well it's pretty easy.
The best first step is to learn the 7 major scale patterns.

Personally I always identify the aeolian degree when I am finding a song's key, then take it from there.
If you have your minor key, then you can easily adapt to any other degree of the scale (seeing as they're all the same notes...)

Read andrew's major scale+chords for scales lesson. it will help ALOT.
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OrganisedConfusi...
post Oct 14 2008, 02:50 PM
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I will check it out and try and understand but it is very confusing to me biggrin.gif


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kjutte
post Oct 14 2008, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Oct 14 2008, 03:50 PM) *
I will check it out and try and understand but it is very confusing to me biggrin.gif


It's really quite simple.

Read degrees of the scale too. it's very helpful.

Basically, if you play an Emajor chord, you can play all the major modes. Ionian, lydian, mixolydian.
Each modal box has 7 notes, which is covered all over the neck.
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OrganisedConfusi...
post Oct 14 2008, 02:58 PM
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huh.gif

I know what a Major Scale it but that is it. E Major scale is E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D# I think. But what does that tell me.


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Ignite
post Oct 14 2008, 04:15 PM
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Thank you all for your help! I'm on my way to figuring this all out.
I have one other question. If you know one key, how to you figure out the other "related keys". And how do you know which modes to play with more than one chord? I'm assuming it would be the same, since the chords are probably going to be in the key and related keys too.


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Prantare
post Oct 14 2008, 05:50 PM
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Damn you guys are good with theory.. I don't know much at all. :-D
Should really start learning this stuff before I end school and start to study music!


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fatb0t
post Oct 14 2008, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Oct 14 2008, 09:58 AM) *
huh.gif

I know what a Major Scale it but that is it. E Major scale is E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D# I think. But what does that tell me.



That means you can play E Ionian F# Dorian G# Phrygian A Lydian B Mixolydian C# Aeolian D# Locrian.

that means you can play a guitar solo all over the neck and sound good smile.gif
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kjutte
post Oct 15 2008, 01:02 AM
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QUOTE (Ignite @ Oct 14 2008, 05:15 PM) *
Thank you all for your help! I'm on my way to figuring this all out.
I have one other question. If you know one key, how to you figure out the other "related keys". And how do you know which modes to play with more than one chord? I'm assuming it would be the same, since the chords are probably going to be in the key and related keys too.


Well, one key isn't enough.

I always hear if the song is in harmonic minor, major, melodic minor or diminished note sequences.
Usually a song is in one of the major modes though.

Basically you just play one of the patterns all over the neck until you hear that none of the notes are faulty.
Another thing that I do is to take advantage of the TTT intervals in the majorscale.

It's easy to hear if you can go for example F A G B. You'll know then that the Lydian modal box of the majorscale can be played in F, and mixo in A, and aeolian in G, locrian in B et cetera.

Also, if we have this, we could also have a modal progression of any of the modes. Let's saywe choose B as root.
Out song would be in the Locrian mode.

Bdim Cmaj Dmin Ebmin Fmaj Amaj Gmin

Or to make it sound a bit more Locrian (or alot.) Bdim Gmin.
Because The closest thing to an evil sounding chord like Locrian's flat5 (diminished 5th) chord, is naturally the 7th degree of Locrian- Aeolian, or natural minor.

Anyway, this may be alot more than you asked for.
My advice is firstly to learn all the majorscale's 7 boxes, start out with jamming all the boxes in songs you already know the key to, THEN after a while, when you really got jamming in itself down, start making your own chord progressions.

Hope this helps, it did for me!

QUOTE (fatb0t @ Oct 14 2008, 08:05 PM) *
That means you can play E Ionian F# Dorian G# Phrygian A Lydian B Mixolydian C# Aeolian D# Locrian.

that means you can play a guitar solo all over the neck and sound good smile.gif


Sure does my friend.

Learn 7 modal boxes=Play all over the guitarneck and sound awesome.
Priceless.

QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Oct 14 2008, 03:58 PM) *
huh.gif

I know what a Major Scale it but that is it. E Major scale is E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D# I think. But what does that tell me.


Basically, a major scale is a scale with a major 3rd. Meaning it's a scale with a 3rd similiar to the Ionian scale's 3rd, which is our guideline to all the modes.

If we know this, we also know that both Ionian (ofc), lydian AND mixolydian are all major modes, because they have that same major 3rd note.

This also tells you that you can play any of these major modes to a basic major triad.

Try it, strum an Emaj chord into your looper and play Elydian etc over it.
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fatb0t
post Oct 15 2008, 01:56 PM
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Yeah I basically did what Kjutte is explaining to learn modes, I'd make a simple 1 chord backing track with a steady drum beat and bass line.

If the chord had a major tonality (Say Emaj) I would try to play: E ionian (or E major pentatonic to start off with), E mixolydian, or E lydian
If you play a chord with a minor tonality (Say Amin) I would try to play: A aeolian (or A minor pentatonic to start off with), A phrygian, A Locrian or A dorian

So you learn all the boxes this way, you learn the color of each scale, and you have fun!
Then when you have an epiphany and put all the boxes together you'll be a competent lead guitarist...
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kjutte
post Oct 15 2008, 03:37 PM
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QUOTE (fatb0t @ Oct 15 2008, 02:56 PM) *
Yeah I basically did what Kjutte is explaining to learn modes, I'd make a simple 1 chord backing track with a steady drum beat and bass line.

If the chord had a major tonality (Say Emaj) I would try to play: E ionian (or E major pentatonic to start off with), E mixolydian, or E lydian
If you play a chord with a minor tonality (Say Amin) I would try to play: A aeolian (or A minor pentatonic to start off with), A phrygian, A Locrian or A dorian

So you learn all the boxes this way, you learn the color of each scale, and you have fun!
Then when you have an epiphany and put all the boxes together you'll be a competent lead guitarist...


Yes, however to really feel the mode you have to use more than one chord.

Example for minor, I would personally use Aeolian as root ofcourse, and phrygian as the intervallic flavor.

This would be an Im Vm progression.

Or Lydian, I would use lydian + major.

Imaj7 + Vmaj ?

just experiment.
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Pedja Simovic
post Oct 16 2008, 01:21 AM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Oct 15 2008, 04:37 PM) *
Yes, however to really feel the mode you have to use more than one chord.

Example for minor, I would personally use Aeolian as root ofcourse, and phrygian as the intervallic flavor.

This would be an Im Vm progression.

Or Lydian, I would use lydian + major.

Imaj7 + Vmaj ?

just experiment.


Good advice

At the beginning practice with complete cadences for modes
For example Aeolian Imin IVmin Vmin Imin or Imin bVImaj bVIImaj Imin etc
So once you have this sound in your ears and you can describe these harmonies well , then move to just a single chord and keep playing same things.
This is called superimposing. I will talk about it when I get my own board soon.
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kjutte
post Oct 16 2008, 08:36 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Oct 16 2008, 02:21 AM) *
Good advice

At the beginning practice with complete cadences for modes
For example Aeolian Imin IVmin Vmin Imin or Imin bVImaj bVIImaj Imin etc
So once you have this sound in your ears and you can describe these harmonies well , then move to just a single chord and keep playing same things.
This is called superimposing. I will talk about it when I get my own board soon.
Thanks


How important are candences, and why? I don't knwo a single thing about em, I just take it from what I like till now.
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Pedja Simovic
post Oct 16 2008, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Oct 16 2008, 09:36 AM) *
How important are candences, and why? I don't knwo a single thing about em, I just take it from what I like till now.


Very important. They describe everything - key, mode, scale etc.
Cadence is group of chords that describe given key,scale or mode.
Cadence must have chords in it that have that have strong sound as well as characteristic notes.

More about this in a week or so I hope biggrin.gif


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