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> Everyone That Wants To Learn To Jam, Take a look at this NOW!
kjutte
post Oct 15 2008, 01:14 AM
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Learn it, it'll help you all.

Here we see the 7 degrees of a major scale.
These patterns never change even though the key changes, you just move it to pitch.

So, another note toreally get you going.

Say a song's in "Aminor" that can technically be Locrian, aeolian, phrygian and dorian. but there usually mean natural minor, which is aeolian.

Same goes for ionian and major.

So again, if a song's in Aminor, you just play the Aeolian pattern starting on A, then locrian would be B and so on.
This is good starters.

Edit:
I ask this to become a sticky. It will really solve ALOT of problems for people.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Oct 15 2008, 01:23 AM
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Muris Varajic
post Oct 15 2008, 01:21 AM
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Nice diagram showing C major scale and 7 modes inside,
useful stuff. smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Oct 15 2008, 01:32 AM
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Useful advice for total beginners to improvising. I would not advise that but rather tell my students to practice soloing over single chord, two chords and then start adding 3 or more chords. This way they train their ear and learn how to take scale and use it properly.
When you give total beginners 3 note per string patterns one thing happens in most cases

- They start sounding predictable (melodic shape wise)

So I try to apply that same concept but combine it with ear training and brake down of chord progression in bits and pieces smile.gif

Nice guitar neck , which software did you use btw?
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kjutte
post Oct 15 2008, 01:34 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Oct 15 2008, 02:32 AM) *
Useful advice for total beginners to improvising. I would not advise that but rather tell my students to practice soloing over single chord, two chords and then start adding 3 or more chords. This way they train their ear and learn how to take scale and use it properly.
When you give total beginners 3 note per string patterns one thing happens in most cases

- They start sounding predictable (melodic shape wise)

So I try to apply that same concept but combine it with ear training and brake down of chord progression in bits and pieces smile.gif

Nice guitar neck , which software did you use btw?
Thanks


May be so, but in my own confusion a diagram like this helped me endlessly.
It's easy to already know, it all seems alot more logical.

With this pattern you can't go wrong, it's all there.
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Pedja Simovic
post Oct 15 2008, 01:41 AM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Oct 15 2008, 02:34 AM) *
May be so, but in my own confusion a diagram like this helped me endlessly.
It's easy to already know, it all seems alot more logical.

With this pattern you can't go wrong, it's all there.


Don't get me wrong I am all for 3 note per string stuff , but not by it self.
If chord progression has 3,4 or more chords , and lets say some of them change in the same bar, do you really expect student to jump around ? Going from F lydian to B locrian in the same bar?
Can be a bit trick , and it can definitely sound jumpy.

I agree with you - lay out is perfect , we all use it - but there are other things in consideration when using this - its just a starting point , without training the ear properly this stuff can be meaningless.
smile.gif


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kjutte
post Oct 15 2008, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Oct 15 2008, 02:41 AM) *
Don't get me wrong I am all for 3 note per string stuff , but not by it self.
If chord progression has 3,4 or more chords , and lets say some of them change in the same bar, do you really expect student to jump around ? Going from F lydian to B locrian in the same bar?
Can be a bit trick , and it can definitely sound jumpy.

I agree with you - lay out is perfect , we all use it - but there are other things in consideration when using this - its just a starting point , without training the ear properly this stuff can be meaningless.
smile.gif


It says "learn to jam".

I had questions like "Where do these guys know where to play?"
It's not about 3 notes per string, it's about knowing where to play in general.

So, I think you misunderstood a bit, but I greatly appreciate your cricism ofc!
And about the ear, I think ear will develop once you learn to jam.

If you don't know where to place your fingers, it can be very difficult to grow motivation to try jamming.

Edit: speaking out of personal experience.
I was noodling around for almost 3 years till I discovered there were diagrams like this, and it was like an angel to me. This is why I am so fond of it!

This post has been edited by kjutte: Oct 15 2008, 01:48 AM
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Pedja Simovic
post Oct 15 2008, 01:55 AM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Oct 15 2008, 02:45 AM) *
It says "learn to jam".

I had questions like "Where do these guys know where to play?"
It's not about 3 notes per string, it's about knowing where to play in general.

So, I think you misunderstood a bit, but I greatly appreciate your cricism ofc!
And about the ear, I think ear will develop once you learn to jam.

If you don't know where to place your fingers, it can be very difficult to grow motivation to try jamming.

Edit: speaking out of personal experience.
I was noodling around for almost 3 years till I discovered there were diagrams like this, and it was like an angel to me. This is why I am so fond of it!


Oh I get where you are coming from !
Well you did good job, 3 years noodling around must have developed your ear quite a lot. I can just imagine how all this clicked once you had it.

Keep in mind , the more material that you provide to beginners , more confusing it gets.
So why not start with minor pentatonic one box , then two or more ? Maybe add some notes from the scale in there and now you got all your modes there.

If you are doing this as approach to beginners then the best advice is to jam on Blues and Single chords so they can learn the fingerings and train ear at the same time.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want them to think they will "fly" just because they have 7 3 note per string shapes hehe

Thanks smile.gif


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kjutte
post Oct 15 2008, 01:58 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Oct 15 2008, 02:55 AM) *
Oh I get where you are coming from !
Well you did good job, 3 years noodling around must have developed your ear quite a lot. I can just imagine how all this clicked once you had it.

Keep in mind , the more material that you provide to beginners , more confusing it gets.
So why not start with minor pentatonic one box , then two or more ? Maybe add some notes from the scale in there and now you got all your modes there.

If you are doing this as approach to beginners then the best advice is to jam on Blues and Single chords so they can learn the fingerings and train ear at the same time.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want them to think they will "fly" just because they have 7 3 note per string shapes hehe

Thanks smile.gif


Actually, I had no ear AT ALL when I started. I could shred, not jam or hear anything.
I had to forget all my technique and play slow with these patterns, and slowly grow ear.

But you're right, it's not for absolute beginner's jamming I guess.
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Pedja Simovic
post Oct 15 2008, 02:36 AM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Oct 15 2008, 02:58 AM) *
Actually, I had no ear AT ALL when I started. I could shred, not jam or hear anything.
I had to forget all my technique and play slow with these patterns, and slowly grow ear.

But you're right, it's not for absolute beginner's jamming I guess.


Makes sense.
Speed is product of finger memory entirely while melodic playing is process that involves ears (unless you want to become "lick player" smile.gif

Cool thread , students need to download this and practice it !


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Guitarman700
post Oct 15 2008, 02:51 AM
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Ohhh, I get it now! Thanks so much! I second the Sticky, very helpful!


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kjutte
post Oct 15 2008, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (Guitarman700 @ Oct 15 2008, 03:51 AM) *
Ohhh, I get it now! Thanks so much! I second the Sticky, very helpful!


biggrin.gif uber!
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jdriver
post Oct 15 2008, 05:04 AM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Oct 14 2008, 05:45 PM) *
It says "learn to jam".

I had questions like "Where do these guys know where to play?"
It's not about 3 notes per string, it's about knowing where to play in general.

So, I think you misunderstood a bit, but I greatly appreciate your cricism ofc!
And about the ear, I think ear will develop once you learn to jam.

If you don't know where to place your fingers, it can be very difficult to grow motivation to try jamming.

Edit: speaking out of personal experience.
I was noodling around for almost 3 years till I discovered there were diagrams like this, and it was like an angel to me. This is why I am so fond of it!


I took a different approach as a total beginner, in that I knew from the start there must be some kind of organisation, players didn't just pull those positions out of thin air. So I started as a virgin with Fretboard Logic and the CAGED system, then learned the pentatonics, then added the diatonics. Now I can jam, but as Pedja said, it sounds very predictable. But now I can really appreciate a diagram as posted here. I still don't really understand how to use modes, but I'm starting with a real teacher soon.


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kjutte
post Oct 15 2008, 05:19 AM
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QUOTE (jdriver @ Oct 15 2008, 06:04 AM) *
I took a different approach as a total beginner, in that I knew from the start there must be some kind of organisation, players didn't just pull those positions out of thin air. So I started as a virgin with Fretboard Logic and the CAGED system, then learned the pentatonics, then added the diatonics. Now I can jam, but as Pedja said, it sounds very predictable. But now I can really appreciate a diagram as posted here. I still don't really understand how to use modes, but I'm starting with a real teacher soon.


Using modes are for advanced players.

I advice you to steal some licks for now, and improv alot in between, grow a good ear.
Then learn about chords and progressionw ith scales, then last do modes.
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wrk
post Oct 15 2008, 09:00 AM
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Nice and helpful diagram .. and an interesting discussion smile.gif

When i started to play guitar i would have loved to have a teacher with Pedja's approach. Someone who give me only some basic chords and the corresponding notes to improvise. Beside the ear development, i think it helps to be more concentrated on each note. The problem with diagrams or boxes are that i have had too many notes available which supposed to sound well, but it never did ... the result was more something like a guessing game and i was happy when i was landing on the right note ... more or less by chance smile.gif

I think at the end it will lead to some sort of diagrams in your head anyway, may it be the 7 major scale boxes or a kind of arpeggio diagram for each chord structure .. whatever helps to memorize things.

QUOTE (kjutte @ Oct 15 2008, 06:19 AM) *
Using modes are for advanced players.

I'm not sure if modes are only for advanced players. Modes are a theory construct to put notes in the context of the chord progression and you can not start early enough to let your brain think about these relations, but you are maybe right that more advanced players are able to apply this knowledge on the guitar while improvising.






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kjutte
post Oct 15 2008, 03:04 PM
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It also helps localizing the 7 base chords of each degree, aswell as seeing its build etc.'

Thanks for your input wrk, I guess we all learn differently smile.gif

QUOTE (wrk @ Oct 15 2008, 10:00 AM) *
I'm not sure if modes are only for advanced players. Modes are a theory construct to put notes in the context of the chord progression and you can not start early enough to let your brain think about these relations, but you are maybe right that more advanced players are able to apply this knowledge on the guitar while improvising.


Sure. But learning how to create modal backings etc are indeed for more advanced players, and that reflects on this forum, with everyone asking how to utilize all the time.

I hope we can agree on this.
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wrk
post Oct 15 2008, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Oct 15 2008, 04:04 PM) *
Sure. But learning how to create modal backings etc are indeed for more advanced players, and that reflects on this forum, with everyone asking how to utilize all the time.

I hope we can agree on this.

I think it's just a misunderstanding ... of course you need the underlaying theory before to dive into modes and it's surely not easy. As a result there are a lot of questions, but i still believe that this is independent of how advanced you are on your instrument.





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kjutte
post Oct 15 2008, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE (wrk @ Oct 15 2008, 06:04 PM) *
I think it's just a misunderstanding ... of course you need the underlaying theory before to dive into modes and it's surely not easy. As a result there are a lot of questions, but i still believe that this is independent of how advanced you are on your instrument.


Fully agree. it depends only on theory knowledge.
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Guitar1969
post Oct 15 2008, 07:00 PM
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That maybe helpful to some , but I don't think its beginner/intermediate stuff at all. I am an intermediate, improvising in the pentatonics and a bit in the major scales, with a few blues boxes, and that diagram is just plain confusing to me. There is so much I can do, and still need to achieve in the pentatonics alone, and don't want to add confusion to where I am at now, which is trying to be more melodic in phrasing with what I have. I always go back to BB king, who lives in one box, but has made the a career out of it

I think its important to remember that what may be logical to one, is confusing to others, and we are all at different points of the journey.




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sigma7
post Oct 15 2008, 07:04 PM
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Wait a minute, quick question. So the minor and all the modes are the same patterns but just the root note changes?


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kjutte
post Oct 15 2008, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (Guitar1969 @ Oct 15 2008, 08:00 PM) *
That maybe helpful to some , but I don't think its beginner/intermediate stuff at all. I am an intermediate, improvising in the pentatonics and a bit in the major scales, with a few blues boxes, and that diagram is just plain confusing to me. There is so much I can do, and still need to achieve in the pentatonics alone, and don't want to add confusion to where I am at now, which is trying to be more melodic in phrasing with what I have. I always go back to BB king, who lives in one box, but has made the a career out of it

I think its important to remember that what may be logical to one, is confusing to others, and we are all at different points of the journey.


It shows where to put your fingers. I don't see how that can be confusing-> no offense of course!

Feel free to ask.

QUOTE (sigma7 @ Oct 15 2008, 08:04 PM) *
Wait a minute, quick question. So the minor and all the modes are the same patterns but just the root note changes?


Correct! However, to really modulate you need to change your rootchord aswell.
Anyway, I find this pattern very nice for illustrating how it all hangs together.

Many get the idea that they have to learn 100 scales to be good, but that's not true at all.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Oct 15 2008, 07:19 PM
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