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Seeking A New Girlfriend!, Ibanez S5470 & Jackson Phil Demmel King V

SensE View Member Profile	Oct 16 2008, 01:41 AM
Oct 16 2008, 01:41 AM	GMC:er Posts: 508 Joined: 5-February 08 From: Wichita, USA	i've seen a recent thread talk about "Ibanez or Fender". I'm interested in seeking a new girlfriend (buying a new axe )so I'm asking you guys about these 2 guitars. Have any one of you play either one of these or heard of anything about them? Thank you guys. The details are here. Ibanez S5470 http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product...itar?sku=518112 Jackson Phil Demmel King V http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product...itar?sku=518753 You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

skennington View Member Profile	Oct 16 2008, 01:52 AM
Oct 16 2008, 01:52 AM	Learning Roadie - Never Give Up - Moderator Posts: 7.461 Joined: 25-November 07 From: Charlotte,NC USA	Hi SensE, Don't know much about the Ibanez but I'm sure it's a great axe. The Demmel model is relatively new but from what I understand, it has good reviews. One question though, do you stand while playing most of the time? I see you have a "V" as your avatar so you may be used to this body style. If not, for me, and this is just my opinion, the V is not a comfortable guitar to play while seated. I have an RR and hardly touch it. When I do play it, I have to play in a classical position which is uncomfortable to me. Also, the horns are easily damaged so you have to be a bit more careful with it. Great guitars, but take all things into consideration before making the purchase. You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! -------------------- *Show Off The Lessons You Have Learned Here On The REC Board And Receive Valuable Feedback from Our Instructors!* *Check Out The Virtual Bands* *Want To Join One, Or Maybe Form Your Own?*

SensE View Member Profile	Oct 16 2008, 02:25 AM
Oct 16 2008, 02:25 AM	GMC:er Posts: 508 Joined: 5-February 08 From: Wichita, USA	QUOTE (skennington @ Oct 15 2008, 07:52 PM) Hi SensE, Don't know much about the Ibanez but I'm sure it's a great axe. The Demmel model is relatively new but from what I understand, it has good reviews. One question though, do you stand while playing most of the time? I see you have a "V" as your avatar so you may be used to this body style. If not, for me, and this is just my opinion, the V is not a comfortable guitar to play while seated. I have an RR and hardly touch it. When I do play it, I have to play in a classical position which is uncomfortable to me. Also, the horns are easily damaged so you have to be a bit more careful with it. Great guitars, but take all things into consideration before making the purchase. Thanks for your kindly advise, Skennington. Yes. I'm using the Gibson Flying V as my main axe and I got used to this axe while seated. I figured out long ago that using V shape body, I have to hold my guitar in such a way that my leg hang into the inner or deeper portion of the V. There is a video in youtube that Alexi Laiho playing his axe while seated. (exactly the same way I'm used to) I agree with you. I've played the Jackson RR offset V which is kind of uncomfortable to me because the weight and balance of that axe is really different. I think I will also need some time to overcome that kind of thing. Oh yea. I got some nicks here and there over the sharp edge of my V and I think this is a really hard thing be taken care of. You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Jmguitar64 View Member Profile	Oct 16 2008, 02:51 AM
Oct 16 2008, 02:51 AM	GMC:er Posts: 153 Joined: 22-February 08 From: USA/VA	I played the Ibanez S5470 at the Sam Ash music store here and I instantly fell in love with the it! It was the best Ibanez guitar ive ever played. You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

SensE View Member Profile	Oct 16 2008, 03:29 AM
Oct 16 2008, 03:29 AM	GMC:er Posts: 508 Joined: 5-February 08 From: Wichita, USA	QUOTE (Jmguitar64 @ Oct 15 2008, 08:51 PM) I played the Ibanez S5470 at the Sam Ash music store here and I instantly fell in love with the it! It was the best Ibanez guitar ive ever played. I went to the Ibanez forum. There was somebody said that this guitar has terrible sustain issue especially over the 14frets and above. Is that true? You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

UncleSkillet View Member Profile	Oct 16 2008, 03:54 AM
Oct 16 2008, 03:54 AM	Learning Tone Seeker Posts: 1.525 Joined: 21-January 08 From: Cincinnati, Ohio	Well I have never played either one but I will say this. If I was looking to buy a guitar just based on looks I would try the Ibanez first. Just because the neck reach to the lower frets (20 -24) looks more comfortable and seems to be easier to play. As far as tone and pickups. Can't help here. My thought would be with the "V" Jackson if you can only play to the 19th fret comforable what good is it even if it sounds better. You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! -------------------- "Think of a guitar solo as a paragraph. You need a clear beginning, a middle, and an end. Look at musical phrases like sentences, and make sure you break them up using punctuation—or space. You pause naturally when conversing, right? If you don't, you'll bore the listener. The same thing will happen with your audience if your solo is one dimensional. You'll wear them out and lose their attention." —Tom Principato

Déjà vu View Member Profile	Oct 16 2008, 03:56 AM
Oct 16 2008, 03:56 AM	GMC:er Posts: 188 Joined: 10-July 08 From: Napa, CA... U.S.	I have played the S5470 several times... One was brand new and it felt pretty "stiff" (not a problem for a new guitar)... Then I played a used one which felt amazing! Don't ask me how they sound though, I didn't play it through an amp... I have an idea of what it would should sound like though ! You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

UncleSkillet View Member Profile	Oct 16 2008, 04:05 AM
Oct 16 2008, 04:05 AM	Learning Tone Seeker Posts: 1.525 Joined: 21-January 08 From: Cincinnati, Ohio	QUOTE (Déjà vu @ Oct 15 2008, 10:56 PM) I have played the S5470 several times... One was brand new and it felt pretty "stiff" (not a problem for a new guitar)... Then I played a used one which felt amazing! Don't ask me how they sound though, I didn't play it through an amp... I have an idea of what it would should sound like though ! I agree. You can tell a lot about a guitars sound and tone capabilities without playing through an amp. @Skennington makes a really good point as well. The "V" isn't very comfortable to play unless you are standing. You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! This post has been edited by UncleSkillet: Oct 16 2008, 04:06 AM -------------------- "Think of a guitar solo as a paragraph. You need a clear beginning, a middle, and an end. Look at musical phrases like sentences, and make sure you break them up using punctuation—or space. You pause naturally when conversing, right? If you don't, you'll bore the listener. The same thing will happen with your audience if your solo is one dimensional. You'll wear them out and lose their attention." —Tom Principato

SensE View Member Profile	Oct 16 2008, 04:25 AM
Oct 16 2008, 04:25 AM	GMC:er Posts: 508 Joined: 5-February 08 From: Wichita, USA	QUOTE (Déjà vu @ Oct 15 2008, 09:56 PM) I have played the S5470 several times... One was brand new and it felt pretty "stiff" (not a problem for a new guitar)... Then I played a used one which felt amazing! Don't ask me how they sound though, I didn't play it through an amp... I have an idea of what it would should sound like though ! If you play it through an amp. You could probably answer my concern about the sustain issue. = = " Soundwise and tonewise would be like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3pOVin4c44...feature=related You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! This post has been edited by SensE: Oct 16 2008, 04:26 AM

Jmguitar64 View Member Profile	Oct 17 2008, 12:50 AM
Oct 17 2008, 12:50 AM	GMC:er Posts: 153 Joined: 22-February 08 From: USA/VA	QUOTE (SensE @ Oct 15 2008, 07:29 PM) I went to the Ibanez forum. There was somebody said that this guitar has terrible sustain issue especially over the 14frets and above. Is that true? I didnt really test the sustain but I have heard that a thin neck and a thin body might effect it. Im not sure if that is true or not though.. sorry I couldnt answer your question man. I would sugget that you try them both out, if you can though. You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

Guitarman700 View Member Profile	Oct 17 2008, 01:16 AM
Oct 17 2008, 01:16 AM	GMC:er Posts: 1.462 Joined: 20-April 07 From: Traverse City, Michigan, USA	Trust me, there is no comparison, the demmelition V DESTROYS that ibanez. And yes, the ibanez has very little sustain, its true. You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! -------------------- My Gear: Guitars: Fender Standard Stratocaster HSS Jackson Dinky Custom Washburn WG-587 7-String LTD EX-50 Kramer Focus 6000 Amps: Peavey Vypyr 30 Marshall MG10KK Kerry King 10 Watt

ZakkWylde View Member Profile	Oct 17 2008, 02:29 AM
Oct 17 2008, 02:29 AM	Learning Tone Master Posts: 3.185 Joined: 22-June 07 From: Germany	Both are tremolo guitars so they have not the best sustain but still enough for soloing and stuff. If you are a Sustain-freak you should get a diffrent bridge type... So let's go for the comparison: Ibanez vs. Jackson -Body: Mahagony vs. alder - so it's up to you preferance in wood tone, your Gibson has a mahagony body and Stratocasters have alder bodys... -Neck: Rosewood vs. Ebony - Jackson wins because it has the better fretboard wood, both Ibanez and Jackson necks are equally thin...also the Jackson is a neck through so it has way more sustain than the bolt on Ibanez -Pickups: Crap Stock pups vs. Active EMGs - Jackson wins with it's 81/60 emg active metal pups; the Ibanez stock pickups suck worse than hell so you would have to replace them... -Tremolo: zr2 vs. Original Floyd Rose - Dunno, if the Ibanez trem is one of the high quality Edge trems then it's a draw; if the zr2 isn't a high end Edge trem then the original floyd rose wins by far... -Extras: The Ibanez comes with a great hardcase and a leather strap while the Jackson gets no extras besides being delivered in drop b tuning (main machine head tuning) Overall I would say the Jackson easily wins if you can live with the shape. Jackson and Ibanez are equal in built quality and their maple necks are equaly thin and fast. Even if the Jackson comes without a case, you still get the better bridge, the better pickups and the better sustain from the neck-through built. I have played both (Ibanez just short time, the Jackson over an hour) and I have to say that you have to spend another 200$ in Pickups to make the Ibanez sound as good as the Jackson! You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! -------------------- Gear: - Jackson USA Select KV2 King V with EMG 81/85 - Gibson Les Paul Custom Arctic White with EMG 81/85 - Ibanez Rg 8527 J Custom 7-String with DiMarzio Evolution and Air Norton - Peavey 6505+ head with Marshall 1960AV 4x12 cab - Peavey Vypyr 30 Practice Amp - Dunlop Crybaby From Hell, Maxon OD808, Boss TU-2, MXR CarbonCopy, ISP Decimator, MXR Custom Audio Electronics Booster

SensE View Member Profile	Oct 17 2008, 03:31 AM
Oct 17 2008, 03:31 AM	GMC:er Posts: 508 Joined: 5-February 08 From: Wichita, USA	QUOTE (Jmguitar64 @ Oct 16 2008, 06:50 PM) I didnt really test the sustain but I have heard that a thin neck and a thin body might effect it. Im not sure if that is true or not though.. sorry I couldnt answer your question man. I would sugget that you try them both out, if you can though. I wish I could try that out. I live in Wichita and the biggest guitar store I have over here would be the guitar center. I went there last week and they do not have it in stock so I have no luck to try that out. The Jackson guitar is relatively new compared to Ibanez and they don't have it too. Thank you ZakkWylde. I agree that Jackson has better fretboard wood and EMG pickup compared to Ibanez which is really adorable. Tonewise for this S Prestige would be like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3pOVin4c44...feature=related What do you guys say about this demonstration? I expect the tremolo is very good since this is an high end Ibanez. I've seen Herman Li using similar S Prestige series which has similar kind of tremolo throughout his career until he got signature model from Ibanez recently. We have many experienced player in GMC. I would really want to listen to you guys and what do you guys think about the video demonstration. Thank you You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! This post has been edited by SensE: Oct 17 2008, 03:33 AM

Marc_Maiden View Member Profile	Oct 24 2008, 09:12 PM
Oct 24 2008, 09:12 PM	GMC:er Posts: 1.164 Joined: 23-October 08 From: Fremont, CA	QUOTE (ZakkWylde @ Oct 16 2008, 06:29 PM) Both are tremolo guitars so they have not the best sustain but still enough for soloing and stuff. If you are a Sustain-freak you should get a diffrent bridge type... So let's go for the comparison: Ibanez vs. Jackson -Body: Mahagony vs. alder - so it's up to you preferance in wood tone, your Gibson has a mahagony body and Stratocasters have alder bodys... -Neck: Rosewood vs. Ebony - Jackson wins because it has the better fretboard wood, both Ibanez and Jackson necks are equally thin...also the Jackson is a neck through so it has way more sustain than the bolt on Ibanez -Pickups: Crap Stock pups vs. Active EMGs - Jackson wins with it's 81/60 emg active metal pups; the Ibanez stock pickups suck worse than hell so you would have to replace them... -Tremolo: zr2 vs. Original Floyd Rose - Dunno, if the Ibanez trem is one of the high quality Edge trems then it's a draw; if the zr2 isn't a high end Edge trem then the original floyd rose wins by far... -Extras: The Ibanez comes with a great hardcase and a leather strap while the Jackson gets no extras besides being delivered in drop b tuning (main machine head tuning) Overall I would say the Jackson easily wins if you can live with the shape. Jackson and Ibanez are equal in built quality and their maple necks are equaly thin and fast. Even if the Jackson comes without a case, you still get the better bridge, the better pickups and the better sustain from the neck-through built. I have played both (Ibanez just short time, the Jackson over an hour) and I have to say that you have to spend another 200$ in Pickups to make the Ibanez sound as good as the Jackson! 1- its up to the person, but i dont believe that body has as great effect on tone as most people think. 2- rosewood vs ebony is subjective, ebony is a harder wood, but some might prefer rosewood over ebony or maple. jackson has the neck through, but ibanez has a better fret access, and if need be, you can replace the neck, plus neck work is easier and cheaper on a bolt on. and the way the ibanez neck is shaped makes it feel a bit thinner than a jackson neck. 3-who are you to say the stock pick ups are crap? first of all, i think emgs are crap, but thats MY OPINION. you cant tell me whats good to my ears, only i can decide that...the stock pick ups are actually pretty decent in quality...they are made by dimarzio, and they arent as bad as you think...i think they would def be more versatile than emgs...i think emgs tone is too common and too sterile and one sided. 4-OFR quality has gone way way down in the last couple of years...the ZR trem is amazing. it stays in tune, handles a lot of abuse, and its wayyyy easier to set up. ive always preferred ibanez trems over floyd rose...but again thats my oppinion. 5- again, you think the jackson easily wins but thats just you, and a lot of things you have said arent really true in terms of fact rather than opinion. so just a word of advice to people reading this, try it yourself and remember that sound, wood, and playability are all opinions so whats good to him might not be good to you. personally i cant stand jackson, but ive been an ibanez player for 8 years so i might be a little biased at the same time OH and for the sustain issue that you hear about from the ibanez forums, its really not bad at all if there even is an issue...it was only an issue with the lower level S's because the neck and trem lay out did not match. The prestige has no real problem to the sustain, but if you need more sustain, there are many things you can do to help it like pick ups and amps You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! This post has been edited by Marc_Maiden: Oct 24 2008, 09:14 PM -------------------- - Marc Current Set up: Atomic Reactor 2x12 Cab/power amp with a Digitech rp1000 as a preamp Schecter c1 plus electric guitar

jer View Member Profile	Oct 24 2008, 09:23 PM
Oct 24 2008, 09:23 PM	GMC:er Posts: 1.889 Joined: 3-September 08 From: Des Moines IA USA	QUOTE I'm interested in seeking a new girlfriend (buying a new axe ) Get both. Have a threesome. But seriously. You see those S series Ibanez's EVERWHERE. They gotta be doing something right. They look like they are extremely easy to play. I wouldnt get real caught up in mahogany vs other woods. I have a Jackson Soloist and its alder too. There is no shortage of sustain. Pickups are all over the board. if you like EMGS then the Demmel coming with them is a big plus. If you are going to put something else in either one then ripping out cheaper stock pickups will cost you less money. Follow me here? They are completely different axes. Both are top quality instruments though. Which one calls to you? You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! -------------------- My Gear Jackson SL-1 USA Soloist Jackson DK2M ESP LTD MH-400 ESP LTD EC-1000 Ibanez Custom S-Series Martin 001 Acoustic Handmade Marshall JCM800 50watt head (with mods) Carvin 50x2 Stereo Tube Amp Boss GT-10 Preamp/Effects Processor Digitech GSP-1101 Preamp/Effects Processor Behringer FCB1010 Midi Controlled Floorboard Behringer Dualfex EX2200 Behinger Stereo EQ Line 6 POD with 2.3 upgrade Line 6 Floor Board Line 6 Spider III Practice Amp Nady UHF Wireless *"Who will eat the decay, when the worms have lost their sight?"*

kjutte View Member Profile	Oct 24 2008, 09:24 PM
Oct 24 2008, 09:24 PM	GMC:er Posts: 1.710 Joined: 17-July 07 From: Norway	QUOTE (SensE @ Oct 16 2008, 02:41 AM) i've seen a recent thread talk about "Ibanez or Fender". I'm interested in seeking a new girlfriend (buying a new axe )so I'm asking you guys about these 2 guitars. Have any one of you play either one of these or heard of anything about them? Thank you guys. The details are here. Ibanez S5470 http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product...itar?sku=518112 Jackson Phil Demmel King V http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product...itar?sku=518753 Ibanez, by far. The jackson is far from versatile. Well, unless you're playing nothing but heavy riffs, cus of the EMG's. You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content!

SensE View Member Profile	Oct 24 2008, 10:06 PM
Oct 24 2008, 10:06 PM	GMC:er Posts: 508 Joined: 5-February 08 From: Wichita, USA	QUOTE (jer @ Oct 24 2008, 03:23 PM) Get both. Have a threesome. 3P HAHAHA.. I would like to do that, its just that I dont have that much money to own 2 girlfriends at the same time. Maybe I can call you up and have a party over my place if I got that. You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! This post has been edited by SensE: Oct 24 2008, 10:07 PM

Canis View Member Profile	Oct 24 2008, 10:32 PM
Oct 24 2008, 10:32 PM	Learning Rock Star Posts: 3.319 Joined: 22-October 07 From: Molde, Norway	I'm not a fan of V shaped guitars, so I would go for the Ibanez for that reason alone You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! -------------------- GMC is not just a website... It's a lifestyle! https://www.youtube.com/CanisArctus ->Click here for the ultimate practicing tip!<-

IDontWantMyUsern... IDontWantMyUsername View Member Profile	Oct 24 2008, 10:49 PM
Oct 24 2008, 10:49 PM	GMC:er Posts: 405 Joined: 22-June 07 From: Mosjøen, Norway	QUOTE (ZakkWylde @ Oct 17 2008, 03:29 AM) Both are tremolo guitars so they have not the best sustain but still enough for soloing and stuff. If you are a Sustain-freak you should get a diffrent bridge type... So let's go for the comparison: Ibanez vs. Jackson -Body: Mahagony vs. alder - so it's up to you preferance in wood tone, your Gibson has a mahagony body and Stratocasters have alder bodys... -Neck: Rosewood vs. Ebony - Jackson wins because it has the better fretboard wood, both Ibanez and Jackson necks are equally thin...also the Jackson is a neck through so it has way more sustain than the bolt on Ibanez -Pickups: Crap Stock pups vs. Active EMGs - Jackson wins with it's 81/60 emg active metal pups; the Ibanez stock pickups suck worse than hell so you would have to replace them... -Tremolo: zr2 vs. Original Floyd Rose - Dunno, if the Ibanez trem is one of the high quality Edge trems then it's a draw; if the zr2 isn't a high end Edge trem then the original floyd rose wins by far... -Extras: The Ibanez comes with a great hardcase and a leather strap while the Jackson gets no extras besides being delivered in drop b tuning (main machine head tuning) Overall I would say the Jackson easily wins if you can live with the shape. Jackson and Ibanez are equal in built quality and their maple necks are equaly thin and fast. Even if the Jackson comes without a case, you still get the better bridge, the better pickups and the better sustain from the neck-through built. I have played both (Ibanez just short time, the Jackson over an hour) and I have to say that you have to spend another 200$ in Pickups to make the Ibanez sound as good as the Jackson! I agree with you at most points, but I just have to tell you that the ZR tremolo is not an Edge Pro tremolo, but still it's half the reason to buy an Ibanez from the S Series. I have one and I'd say it owns the Edge Pro. QUOTE (SensE @ Oct 24 2008, 11:06 PM) 3P HAHAHA.. I would like to do that, its just that I dont have that much money to own 2 girlfriends at the same time. Maybe I can call you up and have a party over my place if I got that. If I didn't know that this was a guitar forum, I would probably have misunderstood that sentence pretty horribly You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! This post has been edited by IDontWantMyUsername: Oct 24 2008, 10:49 PM -------------------- My stuff: Ibanez S320 Marshall MG100HDFX half stack Line6 PODxt Digidesign Mbox Pro Songs I'm writing down/learning at the moment: Children of Bodom - Downfall

kjutte View Member Profile	Oct 25 2008, 01:55 AM
Oct 25 2008, 01:55 AM	GMC:er Posts: 1.710 Joined: 17-July 07 From: Norway	ZR tremolos are close to Schaller nowdays, which is the highest quality floyd available. And zakk, I'd like to hear that jackson's clear + dirt sound You are at GuitarMasterClass.net Don't miss today's free lick. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! Don't miss today's free blues, jazz & country licks. Plus all our lessons are packed with free content! This post has been edited by kjutte: Oct 25 2008, 01:56 AM

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