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OrganisedConfusi...
post Oct 23 2008, 09:18 AM
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I'm praying Obama gets into Office and I'm from UK so not an enemy. I think Obama will get more respect from other nations. He isn't anything like George Bush whereas I think McCain is. You need change in my opinion. Most countries have no respect for USA anymore because of their actions. I think Obama will get this respect back and with his running mate I think he can cover all important aspects well.

So yes I am praying for Obama as president.


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Siggum
post Oct 23 2008, 09:58 AM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Oct 23 2008, 10:18 AM) *
I'm praying Obama gets into Office and I'm from UK so not an enemy. I think Obama will get more respect from other nations. He isn't anything like George Bush whereas I think McCain is. You need change in my opinion. Most countries have no respect for USA anymore because of their actions. I think Obama will get this respect back and with his running mate I think he can cover all important aspects well.

So yes I am praying for Obama as president.


I agree on that, allthough i am no expert i dislike the "we are the most powerfull nation in the world so we can do whatever the heck we want" philosophy. I think Obama will be a better diplomat, and negotiater than Bush, or Mccain.


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mjsteps
post Oct 23 2008, 10:13 AM
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QUOTE (Siggum @ Oct 23 2008, 09:58 AM) *
I agree on that, allthough i am no expert i dislike the "we are the most powerfull nation in the world so we can do whatever the heck we want" philosophy. I think Obama will be a better diplomat, and negotiater than Bush, or Mccain.



Well I will chime in on some misunderstandings as facts need to be understood in light of what we have now in the states and that is a "state run" media. The current economic woes which plague the world are a result of " democrates" controlling congress. Read the facts, the names of the banking chairs, supporters of the sub prime mortage industry.
Now the problem with elections in the states is the system, namely the electoral college. Whereby the electtion comes down to really 5 states. The next problem is that it is no longer about who can lead the free world but who ever has the most money, connections to those who hold the wealth.
Now with that said I will venture out and simply state that what is at stake is "ideaology". What ones stands for and what one is willing to do based on ones convictions, knowledge etc. And from what I can see the states for the first time is that liberal democrates will controll all three areas of the goverment, thus unlimited power and free reign to do what ever they believe in. You can imagine how this could play out and I will leave it at that.
We are witnessing things in which will change the course of history, change the the very way in which we live. If the states want change then we need to take back that which is suppose to be for all citizens and that is a goverment for the people and by the people.
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Noangels
post Oct 23 2008, 12:36 PM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Oct 22 2008, 10:45 PM) *
Obama is not a bad guy any more than Michael Moore is a bad guy. He's just clueless. Michael Moore is just an idiot.

Obama is an ultra liberal senator who wants to take money from those that work hard for it, and give it to those that don't deserve it.

He is completely unprepared to deal in foreign affairs because he has no experience. He is willing to speak with rogue dictators without preconditions, which is naive and reckless.
He wants to tax large corporations which will only mean that the cost is deferred to the middle class. He has questionable associations with radicals like William Ayers, Reverend Wright, Father Fagler, and Louis Farrakhan...all who hate their own country.

John McCain is an experienced senator, ex-fighter pilot who understands how to deal with our enemies. He is an honorable man who wants to work, and has worked, both sides of the aisle to keep our country strong, rather than wallow in the ridiculous partisanship of our present congress and senate, both of whom are dominated by the democrats.

And yeah, if you ask me what I would do with an Iran that wants to destroy Israel and denies the Holocaust, and finances terrorists that kill our soldiers in Iraq...I would say the exact same thing as McCain. As for McCain dropping bombs in Vietnam for fun...are you on drugs?

Political discussions are always potentially volatile. I'll only respond to the most ridiculous comments from those who don't know what the hell they're talking about.


yawn,you believe Iran wants to destroy Israel! Those comments reported in the western media are manure.He was talking about regime change,as we do to other nations!
I have knews for you sunshine our boys in Iraq are the terrorists in their eyes-the war isnt legal and shia muslims there have lots of family in Iran-who are on their border!If they want to get their arms there to use against us then they have that right to do so,considering both our nations supply arms to any other nation on the planet that wants them.
Democracy is just hypocracy on the tip of someone elses tounge,and your ignorant words here are so amusing-please keep them coming tongue.gif

And yes the Vetnam war was another unprovoked war on people wearing sandals and AK47's,started by a false flag operation.

And you also want to bomb Iran then?What a charming pleasent man you are!May I sugest you join our cannon fodder if there is a future world war and get in there quick to fill your blood lust.



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Chris Evans
post Oct 23 2008, 01:27 PM
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**Up till this point the discussion has remained civil, the last post has gone beyoned that and is now on review, try and be civil to each other guys, a difference of views/opinions doesnt need to shut down a thread **

Noangel - I`m leaving your post visible for now and for Frank to have the right of reply, I am trusting that FrankW will ignore the less civil remarks directed at him and comment only on the points & arguements you raise about his previous post.


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Oct 23 2008, 01:32 PM
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I agree with Noangels points. If you attack a country they have every right to kill as many of your men as they possibly can. An illegal war it most certainly is and to suggest that attacking Iran is a wise move that is laughable.

McCain will carry on in wars with countries whereas Obama I think can mend the situation and help these fragile situations. The soldiers in Iraq are terrorists just like the people attacking in our countries for no reason. I wont go into conspiracy theories here. Just assuming they happened. If we attack them and expect them to not attack back then that is laughable.

The world is being destroyed by these leaders.


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Siggum
post Oct 23 2008, 01:33 PM
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I'm glad the thread remains open, hopefully there will be some interresting instead of insulting discussions.


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Oct 23 2008, 01:34 PM
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Yeah I hope it can remain civilised as this is an important area of discussion that you can't ignore. The choise of USA president is a huge event that the whole world is interested in as it can shape the next 10 years for world relations.


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post Oct 23 2008, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (Noangels @ Oct 23 2008, 12:36 PM) *
yawn,you believe Iran wants to destroy Israel! Those comments reported in the western media are manure.He was talking about regime change,as we do to other nations!
I have knews for you sunshine our boys in Iraq are the terrorists in their eyes-the war isnt legal and shia muslims there have lots of family in Iran-who are on their border!If they want to get their arms there to use against us then they have that right to do so,considering both our nations supply arms to any other nation on the planet that wants them.
Democracy is just hypocracy on the tip of someone elses tounge,and your ignorant words here are so amusing-please keep them coming tongue.gif

And yes the Vetnam war was another unprovoked war on people wearing sandals and AK47's,started by a false flag operation.

And you also want to bomb Iran then?What a charming pleasent man you are!May I sugest you join our cannon fodder if there is a future world war and get in there quick to fill your blood lust.


I don't think Iran wants to destroy Israel. I think they want to play patty-cake with them. You must watch a different news station than I do. Ahkmadinijead has stated on numerous occasions that Iran will wipe Israel off the map. I actually watched him speak those words. Pure manure, I know. What kind of kool aid do you drink, Junior?

As far as the unprovoked war thing goes, I never said we should have gone to Vietnam, or Iraq for that matter. I was speaking to your glib comment about John McCain bombing for fun: a ridiculous statement.

And please explain to me the difference between a legal war and an illegal one. I don't care that we attacked Iraq. I only care about the troops over there doing our governments' bidding, right or wrong. Iran is the largest sponsor of terrorism in the world today, and they will have control of the Strait of Hormuz if we let them...it's about oil. You don't have to agree with that if you don't want to. To some people, the US are the bad guys. Their opinion is irrevelant to me.

Iran is training insurgents, providing weapons, and supplying IEDs to any militant faction that wants to kill infidels and Zionists, that's a fact. That's happening right now in Iraq. If you don't believe that Israel is in great danger by practically all it's neighbors, who are Arabs, that's fine with me. I just read the history books while you spout nonsense. The fact is, it's all about the religious differences between them.

Believe me when I tell you that I would very much like to be part of our cannon fodder, as you so eloquently put it. Not because I have some kind of bloodlust. But, because I would spell the young men and women who are over there right now. War is hell, but sometimes it's necessary. The fact that you can blather on speaks to the fact that you don't live in a country like Iran, where we would both be beheaded for our questionable comments.
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post Oct 23 2008, 02:04 PM
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I want to go into Iraq with a copy of Queen Greatest Hits Collection for every citizen. OC spreading the love since 1984. biggrin.gif I will solve this war.


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Muris Varajic
post Oct 23 2008, 02:32 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Oct 23 2008, 03:04 PM) *
I want to go into Iraq with a copy of Queen Greatest Hits Collection for every citizen. OC spreading the love since 1984. biggrin.gif I will solve this war.


Good one biggrin.gif


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post Oct 23 2008, 04:58 PM
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I'm from the UK and also hope Obama gets into office. In my opinion America is run by greed and corporate businesses, Obama is definitely a step in the right direction. And I can't understand everyone's fear and hatred of spreading wealth, what's wrong with it? Everyone is so obsessed with money, and why? So we can try to be exactly how the media tells us to be, and buy useless stuff we don't need? I don't understand it.

I'm not motivated by money at all, I don't want a fancy car when I'm older or a large house with lots of electronic crap. I just want to have a good time and enjoy life.

Anyway, I'm just a stupid teenager, so what would I know?
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post Oct 23 2008, 05:19 PM
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My two cents....

I am not voting in this election, and have never voted...

I feel that too many people vote based on false or innaccurate pretenses, and that every election both candidates' ads/slogans/campaign promises are just smoke and mirrors...

I feel to really understand a candidate you would have to do a lot of research yourself and find out what that person is all about... and I don't have that kinda time.

We all know that whoever is elected into office will do their best to serve the country, and the world.


And thats good enough for me biggrin.gif


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post Oct 23 2008, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Oct 23 2008, 09:04 AM) *
I want to go into Iraq with a copy of Queen Greatest Hits Collection for every citizen. OC spreading the love since 1984. biggrin.gif I will solve this war.



biggrin.gif i want on this band wagon!

also

i found several sources quoteing the deathtoll in iraq at over 100k so.. heres my evidence.. show me evidence that its not

http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of...Iraq_since_2003

http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsec...IraqNumbers.htm

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22441.pdf (official report as of 2006-2 years ago)

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/casu-a28.shtml

http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories...-us-occupation/

i could find more but i don't want to put the effort into something i know i can't be easily disproved about.



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post Oct 23 2008, 06:08 PM
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[quote name='Smikey2006' date='Oct 23 2008, 05:25 PM' post='279039']
biggrin.gif i want on this band wagon!

also

i found several sources quoteing the deathtoll in iraq at over 100k so.. heres my evidence.. show me evidence that its not


http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22441.pdf (official report as of 2006-2 years ago)

Listen, you either don't get that every site you went to was a far left smear site extolling grossly exagerrated numbers, or you choose to believe such nonsense. The one accurate website you listed above , spoke of numbers of Iraqi civilian combat deaths in the 40-50 thousand range.

Bear in mind that many of these people were killed by other Iraqis, insurgents, and murderers, as well as the unfortunate collateral damage of war. So, no, we did not kill hundreds of thousands of civilians. That's not our policy and most fair minded people understand that.

The fact is, with JDAMS, LGBs, and other "smart" weapons, collateral damage is minimized. That's why they were produced. We have no intention of killing the innocent, only the enemy, and they have interspersed themselves among the innocent, in many cases using them as human shields, to perpetrate their crimes against humanity.

When was the last time an American "terrorist" blew up a bunch of innocent civilians by detonating a bomb vest, or a car bomb, just to further their fanatical beliefs?

It's wrong that we are involved in the Middle East. Our leaders have not had the foresight to persue alternative energy sources to alleviate our dependence on foreign oil. But, because of what happened on 9-11-01, we are now in it.

Religious fanatics want us gone, and Israel gone. We won't let that happen. If we have to turn all of the Middle East into a giant parking lot to keep them from trying to destroy us, we will. As long as we don't actively persue the enemy, they will try to hit us, like on 9-11. We'll chase these lunatics to the four corners of the earth before we're done.

Obama wants to negotiate with terrorists like Akhmadinijead. That only validates this nut as a world leader. The talking has been over for a long time...it hasn't worked with Saddam Hussein, and it won't work with Bin Laden or Akhmadinijead. McCain knows how to handle these mad dogs, not Obama.
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post Oct 23 2008, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Oct 23 2008, 01:08 PM) *
Listen, you either don't get that every site you went to was a far left smear site extolling grossly exagerrated numbers, or you choose to believe such nonsense. The one accurate website you listed above , spoke of numbers of Iraqi civilian combat deaths in the 40-50 thousand range.

Bear in mind that many of these people were killed by other Iraqis, insurgents, and murderers, as well as the unfortunate collateral damage of war. So, no, we did not kill hundreds of thousands of civilians. That's not our policy and most fair minded people understand that.

The fact is, with JDAMS, LGBs, and other "smart" weapons, collateral damage is minimized. That's why they were produced. We have no intention of killing the innocent, only the enemy, and they have interspersed themselves among the innocent, in many cases using them as human shields, to perpetrate their crimes against humanity.

When was the last time an American "terrorist" blew up a bunch of innocent civilians by detonating a bomb vest, or a car bomb, just to further their fanatical beliefs?

It's wrong that we are involved in the Middle East. Our leaders have not had the foresight to persue alternative energy sources to alleviate our dependence on foreign oil. But, because of what happened on 9-11-01, we are now in it.

Religious fanatics want us gone, and Israel gone. We won't let that happen. If we have to turn all of the Middle East into a giant parking lot to keep them from trying to destroy us, we will. As long as we don't actively persue the enemy, they will try to hit us, like on 9-11. We'll chase these lunatics to the four corners of the earth before we're done.

Obama wants to negotiate with terrorists like Akhmadinijead. That only validates this nut as a world leader. The talking has been over for a long time...it hasn't worked with Saddam Hussein, and it won't work with Bin Laden or Akhmadinijead. McCain knows how to handle these mad dogs, not Obama.

You seem to be alot more level headed than all the foaming at the mouth crazy conservatives i know. That's good. Im not saying i agree with all your points, but you Score high in my book for not being nasty.This world needs more realists, not more Radical Right and Left wing crazies.


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post Oct 23 2008, 06:39 PM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Oct 23 2008, 08:55 AM) *
I don't think Iran wants to destroy Israel. I think they want to play patty-cake with them. You must watch a different news station than I do. Ahkmadinijead has stated on numerous occasions that Iran will wipe Israel off the map. I actually watched him speak those words. Pure manure, I know. What kind of kool aid do you drink, Junior?

As far as the unprovoked war thing goes, I never said we should have gone to Vietnam, or Iraq for that matter. I was speaking to your glib comment about John McCain bombing for fun: a ridiculous statement.

And please explain to me the difference between a legal war and an illegal one. I don't care that we attacked Iraq. I only care about the troops over there doing our governments' bidding, right or wrong. Iran is the largest sponsor of terrorism in the world today, and they will have control of the Strait of Hormuz if we let them...it's about oil. You don't have to agree with that if you don't want to. To some people, the US are the bad guys. Their opinion is irrevelant to me.

Iran is training insurgents, providing weapons, and supplying IEDs to any militant faction that wants to kill infidels and Zionists, that's a fact. That's happening right now in Iraq. If you don't believe that Israel is in great danger by practically all it's neighbors, who are Arabs, that's fine with me. I just read the history books while you spout nonsense. The fact is, it's all about the religious differences between them.

Believe me when I tell you that I would very much like to be part of our cannon fodder, as you so eloquently put it. Not because I have some kind of bloodlust. But, because I would spell the young men and women who are over there right now. War is hell, but sometimes it's necessary. The fact that you can blather on speaks to the fact that you don't live in a country like Iran, where we would both be beheaded for our questionable comments.


Frank, you need to understand - all news is biased okay? Fox news though they say they're "Fair and Balanced" are not. NBC, CNN all of those stations are biased, your newspaper is biased ALL OF IT IS. You need to read facts, not opinions, don't let someone else tell you the news - find it for yourself. It takes a lot more work but it's a lot more rewarding.
Second off - media is the fourth branch of government in our system. Besides the judicial, executive, and legislative - In America we have the Media branch... People such as yourselves that absorb every thing they hear are directly influenced by the media. If the media collectively wants something to happen, wants some opinion accepted they can easily do it... People hear things and don't question them - they just absorb and internalize. Sometimes it's important to step back from what you hear and ACTUALLY think about it. Things come into focus. Just because Fox news said it doesn't mean it's necessarily true. If you take away the levels of abstraction you can cut a lot of the BS out of news.

This post has been edited by fatb0t: Oct 23 2008, 06:41 PM
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FrankW
post Oct 23 2008, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (Guitarman700 @ Oct 23 2008, 06:18 PM) *
You seem to be alot more level headed than all the foaming at the mouth crazy conservatives i know. That's good. Im not saying i agree with all your points, but you Score high in my book for not being nasty.This world needs more realists, not more Radical Right and Left wing crazies.


I appreciate that. I actually do consider myself more of a realist than a conservative. But, because of my beliefs, liberals and left wingers will tout me as a far right conservative. It doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the degree of cluelessness on the far left.

Unfortunately, we don't live in Fantasyland, and have to confront the bad guys from time to time. And there are far more left wing loons than there are far right ones, believe me. I'm proud to call myself a cultural warrior, and I'm not afraid to confront the left wing lunacy.
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post Oct 23 2008, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (fatb0t @ Oct 23 2008, 07:39 PM) *
Frank, you need to understand - all news is biased okay? Fox news though they say they're "Fair and Balanced" are not. NBC, CNN all of those stations are biased, your newspaper is biased ALL OF IT IS. You need to read facts, not opinions, don't let someone else tell you the news - find it for yourself. It takes a lot more work but it's a lot more rewarding.
Second off - media is the fourth branch of government in our system. Besides the judicial, executive, and legislative - In America we have the Media branch... People such as yourselves that absorb every thing they hear are directly influenced by the media. If the media collectively wants something to happen, wants some opinion accepted they can easily do it... People hear things and don't question them - they just absorb and internalize. Sometimes it's important to step back from what you hear and ACTUALLY think about it. Things come into focus. Just because Fox news said it doesn't mean it's necessarily true. If you take away the levels of abstraction you can cut a lot of the BS out of news.

I'm not getting into this discussion but as a general statement I applaud what you just said. Too many people - still in general and not pointing fingers - just take in what they hear, belive it since they said it in the news and then they repeat it to others as the truth.

An interesting personal experience was after 9/11 when a friend of mine, an US captain at the swedish embassy told me I should watch Fox news for the best coverage of the war. I gave it a try and it was just jaw dropping how it, to me as a foreigner, sounded more like propaganda than news reports.
And in all fairness I'll state that CNN is biased the other way.


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FrankW
post Oct 23 2008, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE (fatb0t @ Oct 23 2008, 06:39 PM) *
Frank, you need to understand - all news is biased okay? Fox news though they say they're "Fair and Balanced" are not. NBC, CNN all of those stations are biased, your newspaper is biased ALL OF IT IS. You need to read facts, not opinions, don't let someone else tell you the news - find it for yourself. It takes a lot more work but it's a lot more rewarding.
Second off - media is the fourth branch of government in our system. Besides the judicial, executive, and legislative - In America we have the Media branch... People such as yourselves that absorb every thing they hear are directly influenced by the media. If the media collectively wants something to happen, wants some opinion accepted they can easily do it... People hear things and don't question them - they just absorb and internalize. Sometimes it's important to step back from what you hear and ACTUALLY think about it. Things come into focus. Just because Fox news said it doesn't mean it's necessarily true. If you take away the levels of abstraction you can cut a lot of the BS out of news.


Believe me, I do watch the news through my BS glasses. And my information comes from history books, talking to my military friends who have "been there", and by using common sense.

Keep in mind that just about the only media outlet on tv that is not in the tank for Obama, is Fox News. Most of the news organizations are far left like NBC, and MSNBC. They're so far left, they're practically irrelevant. The New York Times is far left...these organizations do not even practice the ethics of objective journalism anymore. Many of their stories are downright fabrications, or their sources are ridiculous websites like Mediamatters, or the Huffington Post. You can't get any more disingenuous than that.

I know what I see, and I do the research. I urge all of you to do the same regarding this upcoming election. Most of us are middle class, and can't afford to pay any more money to a liberal cause like "redistributing the wealth".

Our borders will continue to be unsecure, our military will be weakened, our taxes will increase...that's what democrats do! We will lose even more face in the world when we are viewed as being so naive as to elect a complete rookie into the whitehouse. Obama might mean well, but he's got it all wrong.

Like I said, in light of the state of affairs as they stand today, we need experience in the whitehouse, not someone who touts "change" as his slogan. Obama could no more change the democratic majority from spending all our money, than I could play guitar like Muris...it's just a fantasy...
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