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> A Eureka Moment
Pedja Simovic
post Nov 4 2008, 05:40 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Nov 4 2008, 12:23 AM) *
There is no D# minor key

There is only Eb (which sounds the same but this the right way of calling that key)

Look at previous posts I uploaded the picture with all key signatures and relative sharps/flats. If you want to get a relative (parallel) major key from a minor key, you go up a minor 3rd. So from Eb up a minor 3rd is F#. Now you check that picture and that will tell you that F# major has 6 sharps so Eb minor also have 6 sharps.


If there is F# major there should be D# minor


F# major

F# G# A# B C# D# E# (F#)

D# minor = F# major starting on 6th scale degree (aeolian mode)

D# E# F# G# A# B C# D#

So the notes are there no doubt.

Now question arises , and a very good one , why do we call this key Eb minor rather than D#minor?

I believe it has to do what a specific sound it carries and emotions it triggers.

People with perfect pitch associate all notes with colors and feelings. Same thing for keys.
This is not far from truth and can be easily applied in this example.

Give it some thinking and let me know smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Nov 4 2008, 06:03 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Nov 4 2008, 04:40 AM) *
If there is F# major there should be D# minor


F# major

F# G# A# B C# D# E# (F#)

D# minor = F# major starting on 6th scale degree (aeolian mode)

D# E# F# G# A# B C# D#

So the notes are there no doubt.

Now question arises , and a very good one , why do we call this key Eb minor rather than D#minor?

I believe it has to do what a specific sound it carries and emotions it triggers.

People with perfect pitch associate all notes with colors and feelings. Same thing for keys.
This is not far from truth and can be easily applied in this example.

Give it some thinking and let me know smile.gif


wow man you are right

I just noticed my mistake. These things sometimes really get confusing when you think about them. Yes there is D# minor but there is no D# major (and that's what I actually had in mind). I was thinking of that one, and writting about the other one haaha. Thanks for this very important correction. It was very late when I posted this comment smile.gif Good that we have it clear now. Thanks.


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Pedja Simovic
post Nov 4 2008, 06:26 AM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Nov 4 2008, 07:03 AM) *
wow man you are right

I just noticed my mistake. These things sometimes really get confusing when you think about them. Yes there is D# minor but there is no D# major (and that's what I actually had in mind). I was thinking of that one, and writting about the other one haaha. Thanks for this very important correction. It was very late when I posted this comment smile.gif Good that we have it clear now. Thanks.


Emir don't worry be happy man smile.gif

Hehe

Thanks


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jer
post Nov 4 2008, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE
If you want to get a relative (parallel) major key from a minor key, you go up a minor 3rd. So from Eb up a minor 3rd is F#.


So there isnt a circle of fifths picture that deals with minor. You have to convert to major first?

And to do that you go up a minor third. Which is 2 frets. Yes?

So if I have B minor (for example). And want to figure out the sharps in B minor I go up to C#maj and do it that way?


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Pedja Simovic
post Nov 4 2008, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Nov 4 2008, 03:54 PM) *
So there isnt a circle of fifths picture that deals with minor. You have to convert to major first?

And to do that you go up a minor third. Which is 2 frets. Yes?

So if I have B minor (for example). And want to figure out the sharps in B minor I go up to C#maj and do it that way?


There is circle for both sharps and flats for both major and minor. Its pretty easy to deal with.
If you want keys with flats go up a forth from C major or A (natural) minor , if you want sharps go up a fifth.

Ex

C major - A minor ( no accidentals)
F major - D minor (one flat Bb)


C major - A minor ( no accidentals)
G major - E minor (one sharp F#)

Makes sense?


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jer
post Nov 4 2008, 03:35 PM
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no.

I want to figure out the sharps or flats for B minor.

I have this in my hand:

http://aura.gaia.com/photos/21/202653/larg...color_wheel.jpg

How do I do it? The word minor isnt any where on it. Do I have to convert Bmin to major first?

QUOTE
Emir said: If you want to get a relative (parallel) major key from a minor key, you go up a minor 3rd.


So Bmin + minor 3rd = C#maj. Correct?

And looking on the chart (see link) there is no C# maj but there is Db major so I use that?

5 flats?

(I'm giving you the step by step of how I'm thinking it out)


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Pedja Simovic
post Nov 4 2008, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Nov 4 2008, 04:35 PM) *
no.

I want to figure out the sharps or flats for B minor.

I have this in my hand:

http://aura.gaia.com/photos/21/202653/larg...color_wheel.jpg

How do I do it? The word minor isnt any where on it. Do I have to convert Bmin to major first?



So Bmin + minor 3rd = C#maj. Correct?

And looking on the chart (see link) there is no C# maj but there is Db major so I use that?

5 flats?

(I'm giving you the step by step of how I'm thinking it out)



Ok , let me help you out.

First step C major has no sharps nor flats, correct?
Second step, relative minor scale to C major is down a minor 3rd (whole + half step or in guitar language 3 frets).
Ok now third step - if you want MINOR chords that have SHARPS start with A minor and keep going up a FIFTH.
You get this now
A minor - E minor ( 1 sharp) , B minor (2 sharps) , F# minor (3 sharps) etc
Step four, if you want Minor chords that have flats in them start with a minor and keep going UP A FORTH.
So you get this now
A minor, Dminor (1 flat) G minor (2 flats) C minor (3 flats) etc

Makes sense?

If you are still struggling then you need to work on your Interval knowledge.


Unison = same note
Minor 2nd = half step or 1 fret
Major 2nd = whole step or 2 frets
Minor 3rd = w + w step or 3 frets
Perfect 4th = w+ w+ h step or 4 frets
Augmented 4th or Diminished 5th or TRITONE = w + w+ w or 5 frets
Perfect 5th = w + w+ w + h step or 6 frets

This is half of the intervals before the octave.
They will help you create basic chords as well as look for keys with sharps and flats.

Hope this helps now


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jer
post Nov 4 2008, 03:58 PM
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I understand all that.

But its not helping me find the sharps for B minor.

Goal = find the sharps for ______ minor. (could be anything)

Lets use B minor for this example. How do I find the sharps/flats for Bmin?

Since I am starting with minor, do I go UP a minor 3rd (3 frets) and use the circle of fifths for D major?


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Nov 4 2008, 04:04 PM
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I used to have the same problem, and actually didn't use any rules to do that, instead I made a table of all scales, and bit by bit I learned them by hearth.

Here's the table hope it helps, you can print it out:


Attached File(s)
Attached File  Skale.rar ( 2.76K ) Number of downloads: 46
 


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Emir Hot
post Nov 4 2008, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Nov 4 2008, 02:58 PM) *
Since I am starting with minor, do I go UP a minor 3rd (3 frets) and use the circle of fifths for D major?


Yes.

B minor is a parallel scale with D major. Both have 2 sharps. Very simple.

p.s. there are 2 keys missing on your picture, C# major and Cb major. C# has 7 sharps and Cb 7 flats


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Pedja Simovic
post Nov 4 2008, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Nov 4 2008, 05:22 PM) *
Yes.

B minor is a parallel scale with D major. Both have 2 sharps. Very simple.

p.s. there are 2 keys missing on your picture, C# major and Cb major. C# has 7 sharps and Cb 7 flats


I agree with Emir on this one

Once you get the intervals its pretty easy

Here is the shortcut for minor scales

If you start at A minor and go to next minor with 1 sharp you get E minor
E minor would then have E F G A B C D E - as we know this is E phrygian not AEOLIAN. So what you do is RAISE THE SECOND NOTE IN THE SCALE BY HALF STEP!!!

Thats it

Thats your rule for minors with sharps

So you would go on like this

A minor
E minor (F #)
B minor (keep F# + 2nd note raised now you get C#!)
etc

For keys with flats this is the deal

Start with A minor
Go up a forth you get D minor
This D minor scale now looks like this D E F G A B C D !
The problem is , this is D dorian , we need it to be Aeolian (natural minor)
So you take 6th scale degree and flatten it !
So now you get D E F G A Bb C D which is D aeolian.

If you would continue you would get this

A min
D min (1 flat, Bb)
G min (2 flats, keep Bb and flaten 6th note E to Eb)
Etc

This might be difficult and confusing to some of you.
However this is very good way to understand modes scales intervals and everything else.



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jer
post Nov 4 2008, 04:52 PM
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Great!

Now I know how to find minor and major scales this way. As well as the sharps and flats in them them.

THANKS!!!!


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Pedja Simovic
post Nov 4 2008, 04:55 PM
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Here is something that you may also find useful

When I was entering music high school in my country I scored with highest grades on Theory and harmony. I basically did the test that was 3 and a half hours in less then an hour.
What did I do ?
I had an awesome teacher - she wrote many harmony and theory books that are used in Serbian music high schools and academies.
I learned so much from here at that time (I was very young smile.gif

So first thing you need is just learn by MEMORY the order of 7 flats and 7 sharps.

F#, C# , G# , D#, A# , E# , B# !
Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb !

Then all you need is learn to start from C and go up a 4th or fifth depending what type of key you are looking for

Keys with sharps G , D , A , E , B , F#, C #
Keys with flats F , Bb, Eb , Ab, Db, Gb , Cb



QUOTE (jer @ Nov 4 2008, 05:52 PM) *
Great!

Now I know how to find minor and major scales this way. As well as the sharps and flats in them them.

THANKS!!!!


Great man !
Thats awesome
Good luck with this information

Its powerful, it can blow somebody's mind away hehe


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Emir Hot
post Nov 4 2008, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Nov 4 2008, 03:55 PM) *
F#, C# , G# , D#, A# , E# , B# !
Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb !

Then all you need is learn to start from C and go up a 4th or fifth depending what type of key you are looking for

Keys with sharps G , D , A , E , B , F#, C #
Keys with flats F , Bb, Eb , Ab, Db, Gb , Cb


Great post. I uploaded picture on this thread which explains exactly what you said here. You just need to learn that picture and everything after that is really easy.


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jer
post Nov 4 2008, 05:28 PM
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Check this out.

http://www.guitar-vacation-retreats.com/re...cle_fifths.html

Neat picture that shows a great trick for remembering the order of sharps and flats using your guitar.


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Emir Hot
post Nov 4 2008, 05:36 PM
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Yes, very cool system but again C# major and Cb major are missing on his picture.


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jer
post Nov 4 2008, 05:37 PM
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Why do you think the pics keep leaving off C#maj and Cbmaj?


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Emir Hot
post Nov 4 2008, 05:41 PM
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Because C# major has 7 sharps and it's very hard to read notes in that key. They use Db major instead which has 5 flats. They sound the same. The same reason is for Cb major, which has 7 flats but people use B major with 5 sharps for easier reading. However in theory C# major and Cb major do exist.


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Pedja Simovic
post Nov 4 2008, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Nov 4 2008, 06:41 PM) *
Because C# major has 7 sharps and it's very hard to read notes in that key. They use Db major instead which has 5 flats. They sound the same. The same reason is for Cb major, which has 7 flats but people use B major with 5 sharps for easier reading. However in theory C# major and Cb major do exist.


Excellent explanation.

I would add to this one cool thing that a lot of people may not know or be aware of.

It is known fact in musician circles that Guitar players are WOST sight readers. Having said this, guitar players that read the most fluent are Classical and Jazz players. Why ? Classical music is written in notation, Jazz music lead sheets as well as transcriptions are also written in music notation. Rock blues and all the rest of guitar players mostly stick with tabs.

Another little trick

Classical music is mostly written in keys with sharps!

Jazz music is written in keys with flats!


Think about it for a while and let me know wink.gif


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jer
post Nov 4 2008, 05:54 PM
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But Rock Guitar players get all the ladies.



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