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jer
post Oct 30 2008, 01:16 PM
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Right, I know that. And you know that too.

But imagine standing in a room with some musicians and they say. "Alright, this is a I-IV-VII in A."

How long would it take you to do the math and find the right chords? I know you could find them. But how long would it take?

It'd take me a while to work it out on paper. I'd get it. And without help, But not quickly.

This post has been edited by jer: Oct 30 2008, 01:16 PM


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Oct 30 2008, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 30 2008, 12:16 PM) *
Right, I know that. And you know that too.

But imagine standing in a room with some musicians and they say. "Alright, this is a I-IV-VII in A."

How long would it take you to do the math and find the right chords? I know you could find them. But how long would it take?

It'd take me a while to work it out on paper. I'd get it. And without help, But not quickly.

Zero time. I know what accidentals in my brain from each Major scale and now I know this pattern Major, Minor, Minor, Major, Major, Minor, Diminished it is easy smile.gif I, IV, VII in A would be A Major, D Major, G# Diminished.


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Emir Hot
post Oct 30 2008, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Oct 30 2008, 12:10 PM) *
G Min7b5 sorry

Minor already has flattened 3rd in it biggrin.gif


Correct.

Many people call Db and Eb (C# and D#) which in the case of Ab major scale is wrong.
Well done.


QUOTE (jer @ Oct 30 2008, 12:10 PM) *
Here's where I get stuck.

I know the harmonizing the scale concept. And it makes perfect sense.

But how does one use it efficiently?

Meaning this. Say I'm a guitar player and someone says play a I-III-VI in Gb.

I know what the answer is. But it'll take me about 10 minutes to come up with it. First I gotta find paper, then a pencil, then sit down.... ok, carry the one....

Do you more experienced players have all of this memorized?


If you know all the notes on the fretboard instantly on the spot then it shouldn't be that difficult. You can visualise the fretboard instead of memorizing all those letters. That's what helps me most of the time. Many people find it easier to visualise piano keys.


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Oct 30 2008, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Oct 30 2008, 12:19 PM) *
Correct.

Many people call Db and Eb (C# and D#) which in the case of Ab major scale is wrong.
Well done.

I've done classical music theory and sheet music so I know you need a note including A-G in a scale rather than using C and C# in the Ab scale for instance.


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jer
post Oct 30 2008, 01:27 PM
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Yeah, I'm not one of those people. I have to first remember the steps of the major scale. Then map out what Amaj is.

THEN.

Write down the notes in each chord.

Then I can fall back on these shapes for the major and minor ones.

--------
--------
---x---
-----x-
-----x- Major shape (if rooted on 6th)
-x-----


--------
--------
-x------
-----x-
-----x- Minor shape (if rooted on 6th)
-x-----

But man.... a diminished shape? I have no idea. I'd have to look at the notes and hunt and find them. With the major and minor shapes all I know off the top of my head is where the root, 3rd, and 5th are. For a Amaj chord I only know that A is the first note. And I know the shape. I have to do the math to find the other note names.

What method do you guys recommend for memorizing the note names in all 24 major and minor scales?


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Emir Hot
post Oct 30 2008, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Oct 30 2008, 12:24 PM) *
I've done classical music theory and sheet music so I know you need a note including A-G in a scale rather than using C and C# in the Ab scale for instance.


The trick is that there are no sharps in Ab major scale.

Cycle of fifths

C major = no accidentals
G major = 1 sharp
D major = 2 sharps
A major = 3 sharps
E major = 4 sharps
B major = 5 sharps
F# major = 6 sharps
C#major = 7 sharps

Cycle of fourths

C major = no accidentals
F major = 1 flat
Bb major = 2 flats
Eb major = 3 flats
Ab major = 4 flats
Db major = 5 flats
Gb major = 6 flats
Cb major = 7 flats

You can see that Cb major, Db major and Gb major are the same as B major, C# major and F# major. People use the one with less accidentals to write music for easier reading.


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jer
post Oct 30 2008, 01:38 PM
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QUOTE
The trick is that there are no sharps in Ab major scale.


I thought Cmaj is the one that is all naturals. huh.gif

Abmaj and Cmaj cannot contain the same notes.


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post Oct 30 2008, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 30 2008, 12:38 PM) *
I thought Cmaj is the one that is all naturals. huh.gif

Abmaj and Cmaj cannot contain the same notes.

He said there isn't any sharps. Doesn't mean there aren't flats. And Ab has already got a flattened note straight off. So it isn';t the same as C Major.


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jer
post Oct 30 2008, 01:53 PM
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yeah, thats confusing.

I thought Ab and G# were the same note.

Do you guys have the circle of fifths/fourths memorized? It'd be easier if the notes went in order but they dont.

C D G A E B F# C#

And how do you memorize which notes in each scale are sharp/flat?

Or do you just keep a copy of the circle of 5ths in your pocket?


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Emir Hot
post Oct 30 2008, 01:58 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 30 2008, 12:38 PM) *
I thought Cmaj is the one that is all naturals. huh.gif

Abmaj and Cmaj cannot contain the same notes.


Organised Confusion gave you correct answer. I said that Ab major scale doesn't have sharps but it does have 4 flats.

QUOTE (jer @ Oct 30 2008, 12:53 PM) *
yeah, thats confusing.

I thought Ab and G# were the same note.

Do you guys have the circle of fifths/fourths memorized? It'd be easier if the notes went in order but they dont.

C D G A E B F# C#

And how do you memorize which notes in each scale are sharp/flat?

Or do you just keep a copy of the circle of 5ths in your pocket?


Just keep it in the pocket smile.gif It's not that difficult.

Ab and G# sound the same but there is no key of G# major. There is only a key of Ab major


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jer
post Oct 30 2008, 02:03 PM
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I agree that the concept is not difficult.

But the sharps and flats of 24 different scales seems like a lot to memorize.

I see how the circle of fifths helps you easily find them. But I dont picture guitarists taking their cheat sheets out of their pockets and looking it up while the drummer and bass player wait....


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Toroso
post Oct 30 2008, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 30 2008, 09:03 AM) *
I agree that the concept is not difficult.

But the sharps and flats of 24 different scales seems like a lot to memorize.

I see how the circle of fifths helps you easily find them. But I dont picture guitarists taking their cheat sheets out of their pockets and looking it up while the drummer and bass player wait....


Speaking of the circle of fifths. Is there a lesson here that explains this or can someone point me to a source that does?



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jer
post Oct 30 2008, 02:21 PM
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13 people spectating right now.

It seems that I'm not the only one thats confused. smile.gif

What I am specifically inquiring about is how to get from "Yeah, I know how to find the answer" to being able to come up with it quickly.

Follow me?

Like playing a scale. We memorize patterns and shapes. We dont pick a root note and then start thinking ok, whole step, then a whole step, then a half...... We recall in our heads the shape and just let her rip! (at least I do anyway, the shape. I cant really rip yet.... smile.gif )


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post Oct 30 2008, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE (Toroso @ Oct 30 2008, 01:10 PM) *
Speaking of the circle of fifths. Is there a lesson here that explains this or can someone point me to a source that does?


What exactly would you like to know about the cycles? There is not much to be said. Cycle of fifths gives you major scales with shaprs and cycle of fourths major scales with flaths. Both starting with "C". You can easily get all minor keys from there. Just go down a minor third (or up a sixth) and you'll get the relative minor key or scale with the same numbers of accidentals. For example Bb major has 2 flats and G minor also has 2 flats. It's actually the same scale. You can look at Bb major as Ionian mode while G minor would be Aeolian (realative to the Bb root). That's really all to be said about it.


QUOTE (jer @ Oct 30 2008, 01:21 PM) *
13 people spectating right now.

It seems that I'm not the only one thats confused. smile.gif

What I am specifically inquiring about is how to get from "Yeah, I know how to find the answer" to being able to come up with it quickly.

Follow me?

Like playing a scale. We memorize patterns and shapes. We dont pick a root note and then start thinking ok, whole step, then a whole step, then a half...... We recall in our heads the shape and just let her rip! (at least I do anyway, the shape. I cant really rip yet.... smile.gif )


I do as well. I never think of steps in the scale when playing, maybe sometimes. I know the shape and that's enough. Just learn shapes and of course you always have to know where your root is in any moment. I don't think of too much theory when playing. It just comes with experience that I know my shapes and I am confident that I will not play a wrong note. When it comes to explaination of why you played this and not that, there is where you can use theory for better understanding. But generally just learn scale shapes and you'll be fine.




I have just seen that my new lesson about chords is live. Check it out, there are some crazy chord names and intervals explained.


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post Oct 30 2008, 02:53 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 30 2008, 02:21 PM) *
What I am specifically inquiring about is how to get from "Yeah, I know how to find the answer" to being able to come up with it quickly.


You do that by first memorizing the formula of chord types in relation to scale degrees:

I-------II----III-----IV------ V------VI-------VII - scale degrees
major minor minor major major minor diminished - quality of chords

So when somebody tells you play : ii-V-I you pretty instantly know its going to be : minor-major-major

Next step is to visualize the major scale on fretboard to see what notes are going to be the roots of the chords..It shouldn't be quiz questions , you can start playing the first chord and while you are there in relation to the first chord in progression find and play V and I..By identifying what are chord types going to be-you know which shapes to hold over the root.

It will come in time and practice when you'll start recognizing similar/same progressions...And also you will be able to do it vise versa when you see progressions chords (you will be able to spot chord types and than see if its ii-V-I or what every progression it is and in which key is it).


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post Oct 30 2008, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 30 2008, 02:21 PM) *
13 people spectating right now.

It seems that I'm not the only one thats confused. smile.gif

Yes. I was starting to get an aha-feeling in the first posts but I lost it later down the thread. Now I'm confused again tongue.gif


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post Oct 30 2008, 02:56 PM
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Basically the first posts are the theory and pretty easy to understand then it went into methods for remembering them. Just make sure you understand the theory on page 1 and then find your own way to remember the stuff smile.gif


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jer
post Oct 30 2008, 03:10 PM
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QUOTE
Just make sure you understand the theory on page 1 and then find your own way to remember the stuff


Awesome advice.

The theory doesnt change.

But how you remember it may not work for others.

For example:

QUOTE
You do that by first memorizing the formula of chord types in relation to scale degrees:

I-------II----III-----IV------ V------VI-------VII - scale degrees
major minor minor major major minor diminished - quality of chords


How I will remember this is that 2-3-6 are minor. 7 is diminished. I'll try and memorize that.

2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor, 2-3-6 minor.......

What I cant figure out how to memorize is how many sharps and or flats is in each key. And then which notes are sharped or flatted. Sure I can do it with the circle of fifths. The first half anyway. Even the circle doesnt tell you which notes to sharp or flat. So even that shortcut is only semi helpful to me.....




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post Oct 30 2008, 03:43 PM
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Circle tells you how many sharps or flats you have but not which ones you have in the scale.

In the case of shaprs the first sharp is F# (key of G major) and you move that up a fifth and that's the right order of shaprs. So 3 shaprs would be F#, C# and G# which is the key of A major.

Flats are the same but you move them up a fourth. The first flat to be written is Bb which is written in the key of F major. 2 flats would be (Bb and Eb) and they show you the key of Bb major. 3 flats would be (Bb, Eb and Ab) = key of Eb major etc...

This post has been edited by Emir Hot: Oct 30 2008, 03:44 PM


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jer
post Oct 30 2008, 03:54 PM
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Ok let me make sure I understand this.

Here is the circle of fifths.

clockwise by 5ths. CDEFG GABCD DEFGA etc....

QUOTE
In the case of shaprs the first sharp is F# (key of G major) and you move that up a fifth and that's the right order of shaprs. So 3 shaprs would be F#, C# and G# which is the key of A major.


So in the key of Gmaj the notes are G, A, B, C, D, E, F#?

QUOTE
and you move that up a fifth and that's the right order of sharps


So a 5th up from F# is C#? FGABC

So Dmajor has 2 sharps, F# and C#? And its notes are D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#?


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