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> A Eureka Moment
Emir Hot
post Oct 30 2008, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 30 2008, 02:54 PM) *
Ok let me make sure I understand this.

Here is the circle of fifths.

clockwise by 5ths. CDEFG GABCD DEFGA etc....



So in the key of Gmaj the notes are G, A, B, C, D, E, F#?



So a 5th up from F# is C#? FGABC

So Dmajor has 2 sharps, F# and C#? And its notes are D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#?


Exactly smile.gif well done


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jer
post Oct 30 2008, 04:09 PM
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Very cool.

I didnt know that the names of the sharps are sequenced in 5ths too!!!!

Thats my EUREKA MOMENT.

Thanks Emir!!!!!

Now I neednt have the circle of fifths in my pocket. Name a key and I can come up with the notes 2 ways. Go to the root and play the "shape" I know on the neck.

Or use my knowledge of the COF to tell you the note names.

\m/ \m/



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Emir Hot
post Oct 30 2008, 04:13 PM
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Great that you have it clear now. Many people get confused about this but it's actually very simple. Now you can use any method you like but it's good that you know it either way.


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kjutte
post Oct 30 2008, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Oct 30 2008, 11:16 AM) *
ok. This may sound obvious to most but after 6 years I have only just realised this.

G major = G A B C D E F# => Gmaj - Amin - Bmin - Cmaj - Dmaj - Emin - F#dim

That I knew but I didn't realise how you could remember it easily. But I've realised how you get the chords I think

You do kind of 1 3 5 for everyone starting with the letter you want.

So G skip one B skip one D is G Major

Then A skip one C skip one E is Amin

Keep doing this and you get

GBD - G Major
ACE - A Minor
BDF# - B Minor
CEG - C Major
DF#A - D Major
EGB - E Minor
F#AC - F# Diminished

Am I correct with this? I'm a bit of an idiot but I'm happy if this is correct and I've just realised it. smile.gif


Correct.
Basically the 7 chords of a diatonic (7note, example major) scale - are just derived from the 1 3 5th note of each scale degree box.

QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Oct 30 2008, 11:54 AM) *
What is the interval make up of a dominant chord?


1 3 5 7th note of dominant degree. V of major.

R maj 3 maj 5 min 7.
A dominant7 chord is a majorchord with a minor 7th.

A diminished chord is a triad with a b5, or diminished 5th.
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FrankW
post Oct 30 2008, 04:41 PM
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Great discussion guys. I'm learning from reading the posts...beautiful. smile.gif
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Emir Hot
post Oct 30 2008, 04:49 PM
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Rock on Frank smile.gif


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skennington
post Oct 30 2008, 05:09 PM
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Good stuff in here guys! Andrew would be proud. smile.gif Reading theory for me is quite boring but seeing it in the light of discussion is helping me to grasp a bit more of it! Thanks for the topic OC smile.gif


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Jakub Luptovec
post Oct 30 2008, 05:24 PM
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Sorry for stepping backwards, but I didnt fully get the reason, why is there no G# Major? When Ab is viable and G sharp is the same? It should be equivalent?


Btw. I am now hardly working on the circle of 5ths concept:P


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jer
post Oct 30 2008, 05:29 PM
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QUOTE
in the light of discussion is helping me to grasp a bit more


I suspect there to be a lot of this.

You may only have a handful of people asking the questions. But there are always more learning from it.

Dont be afraid to ask. This is a great site. Others are learning silently in the background. You asking will help more than just you!!!



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skennington
post Oct 30 2008, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 30 2008, 12:29 PM) *
Dont be afraid to ask. This is a great site. Others are learning silently in the background. You asking will help more than just you!!!


Never been short on words or questions and so far, things have been explained quite nicely. smile.gif If a question comes to mind, I'll be sure to ask wink.gif


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jer
post Oct 30 2008, 05:54 PM
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I didnt mean you specifically. Anyone really.

Lots of lurkers. That means this is helpful.


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Oxac
post Oct 30 2008, 06:46 PM
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I'd like to add something to the circle of fifths, just something that might help.

In C Ionian we have G mixolydian. Mixolydian mode is the major mode with a minor 7th. So in order to move from G mixo to G ionian we have to raise that seventh. That's what happens when we move around clockwise biggrin.gif

Going backwards on the otherhand, you have G Ionian, but want C ionian, which you can get by transforming G Ionian into G mixolydian, done by lowering the seventh in the G ionian.

I dunno if it helps, but that's how I think.


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skennington
post Oct 30 2008, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 30 2008, 12:54 PM) *
That means this is helpful.


I aree here with you man. Maybe we could come up with a time that works good with those that want to join in and have "Theory Chat" once a week.. smile.gif

EDIT: I know I could really use it! laugh.gif

This post has been edited by skennington: Oct 30 2008, 07:07 PM


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Emir Hot
post Oct 30 2008, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Oct 30 2008, 04:24 PM) *
Sorry for stepping backwards, but I didnt fully get the reason, why is there no G# Major? When Ab is viable and G sharp is the same? It should be equivalent?


Btw. I am now hardly working on the circle of 5ths concept:P


Hi

You can only have maximum of 7 sharps or 7 flats in the key signature (accidentals written at the begining of the notation). That's why G# major as the key itself doesn't exist in theory. We use Ab major instead. How would you possibly write G# major? It would sound something like G#, A#, C, C#, D#, F, G. This is wrong because when writting sharps you have to start with F# first. In this scale there is no F# note so it can't be possible to make the key signature for the G# major. Also it's wrong to write the scale which has two same letters in it - like this wrong example above it has C and C#.

Hope this helps

This post has been edited by Emir Hot: Oct 30 2008, 07:12 PM


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jer
post Oct 30 2008, 07:38 PM
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QUOTE
"Theory Chat" once a week..


Awesome idea!!!

Attached Image

Quick, someone fire up photoshop!!!!!

"I'm Andrew the Theory Lady and this is Theory Chat!"



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skennington
post Oct 30 2008, 07:46 PM
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laugh.gif Bondy, you watching this... laugh.gif


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Jakub Luptovec
post Oct 30 2008, 08:21 PM
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2 Emir: Thanks for enlightening:)

Although I am not used on standart notation (but study of it is on my recent to-do list) I can understand the C/C# part. I will take it as a rule now:)

Only think I'd like to ask You is - what do you mean, by "We always have to start with F#"


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Emir Hot
post Oct 30 2008, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Oct 30 2008, 07:21 PM) *
Only think I'd like to ask You is - what do you mean, by "We always have to start with F#"


When you writting sharps at the begining of notation (the key signature not the sharps in the melody) you always start from F#. Each other key signature is followed by that F#. It has to be the fisrt every time. See the picture below I hope you will understand. This is the only proper order of writting accidentals, reading from left to right.



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FrankW
post Oct 30 2008, 10:44 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Oct 30 2008, 01:35 PM) *
The trick is that there are no sharps in Ab major scale.

Cycle of fifths

C major = no accidentals
G major = 1 sharp
D major = 2 sharps
A major = 3 sharps
E major = 4 sharps
B major = 5 sharps
F# major = 6 sharps
C#major = 7 sharps

Cycle of fourths

C major = no accidentals
F major = 1 flat
Bb major = 2 flats
Eb major = 3 flats
Ab major = 4 flats
Db major = 5 flats
Gb major = 6 flats
Cb major = 7 flats

You can see that Cb major, Db major and Gb major are the same as B major, C# major and F# major. People use the one with less accidentals to write music for easier reading.


So, the cycle of fifths defines the sharps, and the cycle of fourths defines the flats...is that it?
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wrk
post Oct 30 2008, 10:49 PM
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As an add-on to Emirs picture above, here is an helpful training tool:

http://musictheory.net/trainers/html/id83_en.html

If you understood the concept it's quite helpful just for memorizing.





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