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> A Eureka Moment
Emir Hot
post Oct 30 2008, 11:02 PM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Oct 30 2008, 09:44 PM) *
So, the cycle of fifths defines the sharps, and the cycle of fourths defines the flats...is that it?

correct

QUOTE (wrk @ Oct 30 2008, 09:49 PM) *
As an add-on to Emirs picture above, here is an helpful training tool:

http://musictheory.net/trainers/html/id83_en.html

If you understood the concept it's quite helpful just for memorizing.

great tool wrk


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FrankW
post Oct 31 2008, 12:38 AM
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I really learned something today. I have really had a Eureka moment thanks to Organized, Emir, Oxac, and the intelligent questions asked by all. I actually started writing this stuff down on my chord charts, Thanks guys. smile.gif
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Emir Hot
post Oct 31 2008, 12:45 AM
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great Frank. These things are essential. It's really cool that we can all communicate this way and help each other.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Oct 31 2008, 01:40 AM
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Wow, this topic has really gone a long way smile.gif


While I wait for my upload, let me write my 2 cents on the circles:



THE CIRCLE OF FIFTHS:


People often ask what is the circle of fifths. Behind that cryptic name there's a very simple concept basically and it all starts with good ol' C major scale:

C - D - E = F - G - A - B = C

what we have above is a C major scale. Sign (-) marks the whole step interval, and sign (=) a half step interval. For those of you who don't know what whole step and half step means, when translated to guitar neck a whole step is when the notes are 2 frets apart on one string and half step is when the notes are right next to each other on the string, so 1 step apart.

So:

(-) whole step, notes are 2 frets apart
(=) half step, notes are 1 fret apart (next to each other)


Why is this important well let's look at the C major scale again:

C - D - E = F - G - A - B = C

suppose we wanna make another scale out of it, how do we do that?


Easy, we will follow these 3 basic steps bellow, bare with me:

Step number 1

we are gonna split the C major scale in two parts like this:

C - D - E = F
G - A - B = C


Now notice here that both of these parts have the same whole step, half step layout This is one important characteristic of the major scale, and every major scale has this layout.

Step number 2

We are gonna make the second major scale, now starting from the second part the C major scale that we had in step number 1, like this:

G - A - B = C - D - E = F - G

But is there something wrong with this scale? Well yes it does not have the same layout of whole step, half step intervals like C major scale does. In step number one we have a rule that says that every major scale has ( - - = - - - = ) the same layout of steps between the notes.
To transform this scale into G major scale we have to do the step three.

Step number 3

Again we have our scale from above:

G - A - B = C - D - E = F - G

in order to transform it to G major we must raise the VII note by a half step. This will create a ( - - = - - - = ) layout that we need.

If we raise the F note the scale will look like this:

G - A - B = C - D - E - F# = G

So this above my folks is a regular G major scale.


If we wanna create another scale so what now?? Well simply split the G major scale now to two parts and follow the same steps, then split that scale and follow again those steps etc..


How does this relates to the circle of fifths??


Well simple every time we are making a new major scale, we are actually starting to build from the 5th note of a previous major scale.

In C major, 5th note is G, so now we have G major.
In G major 5th note is D, so now we have D major.
In D major 5th note is A, so now we have A major.
In A major 5th note is E, so now we have E major.
In E major 5th note is B, so now we have B major.
In B major 5th note is F#, so now we have F# major.
In F# major 5th note is C#, so now we have C# major.



So this is my friends building following the circle of fifths. Now if you remember the 3rd step, we had to raise the VII note every time. This means that every next major scale in the circle have +1 # sign.


In C major - 0 #
In G major - 1 #
In D major - 2 #
In A major - 3 #
In E major - 4 #
In B major - 5 #
In F# major - 6 #
In C# major - 7#





Doing circle of fourths is very similar only going backwards, and starting from the fourth note of a scale. A more detailed explanation on the circle of fourths tomorrow, or check out Andrew's theory lessons.

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: Oct 31 2008, 01:43 AM


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jer
post Oct 31 2008, 02:20 AM
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So are you saying if we continue...

QUOTE
G - A - B = C - D - E - F# = G


split it into 2 =

G - A - B = C

D - E - F# = G

then take the back half and continue it....

D - E - F# = G - A - B = C

Then raise the 7th note a 1/2 step we get the next one in the circle of fifths?

D - E - F# = G - A - B - C#



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Ivan Milenkovic
post Oct 31 2008, 02:24 AM
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That's exactly it man you got it smile.gif


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jer
post Oct 31 2008, 02:27 AM
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Hell yeah!!!!

Who's got the next one?

A Major


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Muris Varajic
post Oct 31 2008, 02:39 AM
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Great thread guys,keep em coming! smile.gif


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FrankW
post Oct 31 2008, 04:18 AM
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Okay, here's A Major:

A-B-C#=D-E-F#-G#=A

So: A-B-C#=D

E-F#-G#=A

E-F#-G#=A-B-C#-D#=E

I think that's right. smile.gif I want to add that I wasn't up on this stuff until I read this thread. This is really cool.

This post has been edited by FrankW: Oct 31 2008, 04:24 AM
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blindwillie
post Oct 31 2008, 08:28 AM
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Hmmm... at least I'm starting to see relationships now.
Thanks all.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Oct 31 2008, 10:36 AM
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That is correct FrankW!

Anybody wanna do the next scale?? We must complete the circle of fifths in order to tell you about the circle of fourths biggrin.gif


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Jakub Luptovec
post Oct 31 2008, 12:39 PM
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Well here is E major: E-F#-G#=A-B-C#-D#=E

The next step should be

B major


1st step:

E-F#-G#=A

and

B-C#-D#=E

2nd step - we rotate it

B-C#-D#=E-F#-G#=A

3rd step (is this B mixolydian?) raising 7th degree on A#

B-C#-D#=E-F#-G#-A#


Aight?smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Oct 31 2008, 02:04 PM
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Great book for theory is Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book.
Easy read and very useful . First chapter is all about intervals chords structure of scales etc
The book goes for 45$ or 50$
Thats how much I got it at Berklee Bookstore in Boston.
You can find it on amazon probably


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kaznie_NL
post Oct 31 2008, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Oct 30 2008, 11:16 AM) *
ok. This may sound obvious to most but after 6 years I have only just realised this.

G major = G A B C D E F# => Gmaj - Amin - Bmin - Cmaj - Dmaj - Emin - F#dim

That I knew but I didn't realise how you could remember it easily. But I've realised how you get the chords I think

You do kind of 1 3 5 for everyone starting with the letter you want.

So G skip one B skip one D is G Major

Then A skip one C skip one E is Amin

Keep doing this and you get

GBD - G Major
ACE - A Minor
BDF# - B Minor
CEG - C Major
DF#A - D Major
EGB - E Minor
F#AC - F# Diminished

Am I correct with this? I'm a bit of an idiot but I'm happy if this is correct and I've just realised it. smile.gif


Hey... that helped me tongue.gif

great OC! I had an Eureka moment as well yesterday, I figured out how to play the verse of Better Be Home Soon!


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skennington
post Oct 31 2008, 03:18 PM
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Let me give this a shot....

F# Major

F#-G#-A=B-C#-D-E=F#

F#-G#-A=B
C#-D-E=F#

So next scale would be...?

C#-D-E=F#-G#-A-B=C#


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jer
post Oct 31 2008, 03:52 PM
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you forgot the last step.

The scale you have is the same notes as you started with. Just in a different order.



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skennington
post Oct 31 2008, 04:11 PM
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So I need to raise "A" by a 1/2 step? This would complete the "Circle" back to C Major, correct?


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jer
post Oct 31 2008, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE
F# Major

F#-G#-A=B-C#-D-E=F#

F#-G#-A=B
C#-D-E=F#

So next scale would be...?

C#-D-E=F#-G#-A-B=C#


F# maj is actually:

F# G# A# B C# D# F F# (can you have F and F# in there? Should we being calling F Eb here?)
w w h w w w h

So to split it gives us:

F# G# A# B

and

C# D# F F#

Continuing the 2nd half gets us:

C# D# F F# G# A# B

Then raising the 7th one a half step gets us:

C# D# F F# G# A# C


This doesnt look right..... And looking at the COF there is no C# listed.... Should we be thinking of this as Db?

This post has been edited by jer: Oct 31 2008, 04:39 PM


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Emir Hot
post Oct 31 2008, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 31 2008, 03:39 PM) *
F# maj is actually:

F# G# A# B C# D# F F# (can you have F and F# in there? Should we being calling F Eb here?)
w w h w w w h


You got the right notes but you wrote them incorrectly

F should be E# and that way you won't have F written twice. F# major has 6 sharps so:

F# G# A# B C# D# E# (F# - root is not usually written twice, 7 notes are enough)


And also forget about flats when you are working with the cycle of fifths. There are no flats

This post has been edited by Emir Hot: Oct 31 2008, 05:09 PM


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jer
post Oct 31 2008, 05:18 PM
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yeah, E#, thats what I meant.

QUOTE
And also forget about flats when you are working with the cycle of fifths. There are no flats


Then what are all those b's doing over there on the left side? biggrin.gif

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