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> A Eureka Moment
Emir Hot
post Oct 31 2008, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 31 2008, 04:18 PM) *
yeah, E#, thats what I meant.



Then what are all those b's doing over there on the left side? biggrin.gif

[attachment=10895:circle_o...or_wheel.jpg]


Those are cycle of fourths smile.gif

This picture is wrong. There is no key of C# and the key of Cb. Check my previous picture about sharps and flats, that's the correct order


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jer
post Oct 31 2008, 05:24 PM
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I see.

Cuz C#maj would be: C# D# E# F# G# A# B#

And thats is just plain wacky. Yes?


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Emir Hot
post Oct 31 2008, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 31 2008, 04:24 PM) *
I see.

Cuz C#maj would be: C# D# E# F# G# A# B#

And thats is just plain wacky. Yes?


Yes smile.gif


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jer
post Oct 31 2008, 05:27 PM
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WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!



Thanks Emir.

I checked out your new album by the way.

Man, you can play the S@*T out of the guitar.


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Emir Hot
post Oct 31 2008, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Oct 31 2008, 04:27 PM) *
WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!



Thanks Emir.

I checked out your new album by the way.

Man, you can play the S@*T out of the guitar.


haaaaaa thank you smile.gif I am writting the new one. Could be out next summer


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Toroso
post Oct 31 2008, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Oct 30 2008, 09:43 AM) *
What exactly would you like to know about the cycles? There is not much to be said. Cycle of fifths gives you major scales with shaprs and cycle of fourths major scales with flaths. Both starting with "C". You can easily get all minor keys from there. Just go down a minor third (or up a sixth) and you'll get the relative minor key or scale with the same numbers of accidentals. For example Bb major has 2 flats and G minor also has 2 flats. It's actually the same scale. You can look at Bb major as Ionian mode while G minor would be Aeolian (realative to the Bb root). That's really all to be said about it.



I guess what I'm saying is I don't really know how it works or how to use it. Much theory still to be learned Im afraid . unsure.gif


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skennington
post Oct 31 2008, 07:06 PM
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Thanks guys, got it smile.gif I was raising the V instead of the VII, so now makes more sense.. cool.gif


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Emir Hot
post Oct 31 2008, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE (Toroso @ Oct 31 2008, 06:03 PM) *
I guess what I'm saying is I don't really know how it works or how to use it. Much theory still to be learned Im afraid . unsure.gif


I think you have it all in this topic. Start from begining and you can get the whole point. About using cycle of fifths or fourths in your music, maybe you don't need to think about it. It is just good to understand the concept and for some other things. For example if you want to understand why there is no a key of G#, this theory can explain you that. Also if you look at some notation and see 3 shaprs at the begining, you can automatically realize that the song is either in the key of A major of F# minor. This is where it comes as a helpful tool.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Oct 31 2008, 09:37 PM
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Well guys congratulations, you made it through the circle of fifths, now, as I promised let's form a circle of fourths:

CIRCLE OF FOURTHS:

With the circle of fourths we actually go the other way around. We also have 3 steps that we talked about before, but they are a bit different.

As before, we start from our good friend - C major scale smile.gif

C - D - E = F - G - A - B = C


STEP 1


In this step we do the same as before, we split the C major scale in half and get two equal parts like this:


C - D - E = F
G - A - B = C


STEP 2


In step 2 we will put first part in second place and second part in first place and start couningfrom the end of the first part. This is the fourth note of the C major scale, and we will made F major scale by counting downwards like this:


[F - G - A - B] = [C - D - E = F]

as you can see the first part of the C major scale now became the second part of the F major scale.

STEP 3


So now we have this scale from above:

F - G - A - B = C - D - E = F

and as before, this is not a major scale, because we need our major scale layout of intervals between notes. (- - = - - - =)

What do we do? We will simply flat the fourth note by a half step.

If we flat the fourth note we will get:

F - G - A = Bb - C - D - E = F

and this my friends is the F major scale! smile.gif


If we now wanna continue the circle, we will follow three basic steps from above:


1. split the scale in two, and put second part as first
2. start counting from the last note of the first part downwards
3. flat the fourth note of the new scale to get a major scale



that's it guys, hope it helped a bit.


As before every scale has one added "b" sign, as a result of flattening the fourth note every time.

And since we start building the scale from the fourth note, this is why it is called the circle of fourths!


Now everybody try to go through circle of fourths:

starting from C major scale

C - D - E = F - G - A - B = C

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: Oct 31 2008, 09:38 PM


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jer
post Oct 31 2008, 09:41 PM
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We did Cmaj to Fmaj

F - G - A = Bb - C - D - E = F

Split it...

F - G - A = Bb
C - D - E = F

Start from the 4th note in the 1st half

Bb C D E F G A Bb

Flatten the 4th a half step

Bb C D Eb F G A




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Ivan Milenkovic
post Oct 31 2008, 09:43 PM
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Wonderful! you got it mate biggrin.gif


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FrankW
post Oct 31 2008, 10:02 PM
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Okay...my turn!

Bb-C-D=Eb-F-G-A=Bb:

Bb-C-D=Eb
F-G-A=Bb so:

Eb-F-G=Ab-Bb-C-D=Eb

Yes?

Ivan, your method is quick and easy to remember. I'm visualizing the fretboard when I sound out the major scale. Either way works. This is great.

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Ivan Milenkovic
post Oct 31 2008, 10:32 PM
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Way to go mate! smile.gif Very good smile.gif


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GibsonScott
post Nov 3 2008, 07:07 PM
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This was an excellent read! I've been enjoying reading the theory articles, but it's nice to see and learn from everyone's participation in the thread. I actually feel like I understand the circle of fifths and fourths now!! Thanks guys!!
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Emir Hot
post Nov 3 2008, 07:31 PM
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Well done Gibson. Always nice to hear that someone can learn things like this.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Nov 3 2008, 10:23 PM
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Great job mate, I'm glad if I could help in any way. Keep rockin smile.gif


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jer
post Nov 3 2008, 10:29 PM
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Now I know 2 ways to find the notes in any major scale 3 different ways.

1 - start with the root and apply the old w-w-h-w-w-w-h step sequence.
2 - find the root on the 6th string and apply the major 3 note per string shape I have memorized.
3 - use the circle of fifths

All we've talked about so far are major scales...

Now how does all this relate minor?


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Emir Hot
post Nov 3 2008, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Nov 3 2008, 09:29 PM) *
Now I know 2 ways to find the notes in any major scale 3 different ways.

1 - start with the root and apply the old w-w-h-w-w-w-h step sequence.
2 - find the root on the 6th string and apply the major 3 note per string shape I have memorized.
3 - use the circle of fifths

All we've talked about so far are major scales...

Now how does all this relate minor?


Down a minor 3rd or up a 6th will give you the relative minor key. If you have A major scale (3 sharps) then it's the same scale as F# minor (also with 3 shaprs) just starting from the F# note. You can look at your A major as Ionian mode and F# minor as Aeolian (or natural minor).


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jer
post Nov 3 2008, 11:02 PM
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so for example if I needed to know what D#min was....

I'd need to find the relative major right?

How do I do that?



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Emir Hot
post Nov 3 2008, 11:23 PM
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There is no D# minor key

There is only Eb (which sounds the same but this the right way of calling that key)

Look at previous posts I uploaded the picture with all key signatures and relative sharps/flats. If you want to get a relative (parallel) major key from a minor key, you go up a minor 3rd. So from Eb up a minor 3rd is F#. Now you check that picture and that will tell you that F# major has 6 sharps so Eb minor also have 6 sharps.

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unfortunately it was very late when I posted the above comment so what I said above is wrong. I was really tired and thinking about theory smile.gif Yes there is D# minor. See Pedja's comment on the next page and my appologies smile.gif

This post has been edited by Emir Hot: Nov 4 2008, 06:13 AM


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