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> Obama Or Mccain (vote Now)
Obama or McCain?
Who do you choose?
Obama [ 115 ] ** [89.84%]
McCain [ 13 ] ** [10.16%]
Total Votes: 128
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Nov 5 2008, 01:16 AM
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QUOTE (Ctodd @ Nov 5 2008, 01:08 AM) *
Regarding what you said about brainwashing... No one in the world is safe from this... even you, Ivan, It doesnt matter where you got your information from... sombody distorted it.

One thing I have made a habit of recently is to always read facts/opinions and other subjective material with a very light foot so to speak... that is I do not immediately accept certain arguments if they seem invalid even the slightest... its really hard for me to explain, but in doing this it sort of guards against letting these large media outlets to hold sway over you.


I'm not saying that I'm not being brainwashed every day. It's just that politicians and media in my country are on a much less sophisticated level than in US and other countries, because we are still ~50-100 years behind other developed world countries. SO in that sense, our media brain washing is actually some form of not yet developed western copycat style brain washing. Why would I wanna watch that? I can turn on the CNN and watch the real deal right there.

Also I really wanna digress at this point and say I don't have anything against any people or any nation in the world, and I can strongly and responsibly argue that.


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It doesnt matter where you got your information from... sombody distorted it.


on what specific information do you mean?


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fkalich
post Nov 5 2008, 01:16 AM
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QUOTE (Dejan Farkas @ Nov 4 2008, 07:04 PM) *
I agree Ivan, corporation capitalism is ruling the world right now, so it doesn't really matters from that point, the only thing a president can influence is foreign policy and relations.. so it should be a more good, or a less bad candidate smile.gif


Dejan, Obama is the most liberal man on capital hill. There are nearly 600 on the hill, congressmen and senators. He is radically different. He had to lay a bit low, to get elected, but there is quite a difference here.

McCain is actually a bit liberal, but Obama is an internationalist, and very much a liberal socialist. Being an internationalist is more of interest to people outside the country, he will not take unilateral military actions, will work with the international committee.

But he could not talk to much about that during the election, the Republicans would have used that against him with their propaganda apparatus.

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OrganisedConfusi...
post Nov 5 2008, 01:20 AM
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I really can't go to bed sad.gif It's getting to 1am here and I hope it doesn't go all through the night.


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swingline
post Nov 5 2008, 01:25 AM
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QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Nov 1 2008, 05:25 AM) *
Howcome there are only two candidates? I never really understood how that system works, and what's the deal wth the electors? I wouldn't mind if someone could shed some light on how (and if) that system actually works, if that's not straying to much off topic.

Voted Obama btw.


There are actually more candidates but the other parties receive very few votes. (The Independents usually receiving the most, receive around 2.0% of the total votes.) The electors work as two things first they are a buffer between the mob (general public) and the election. Basically this is to avoid the person who would go up and state that if he is elected everybody would receive one million dollars. They are intelligent enough to look past this and help the country stay out of that crisis. The second reason is to help balance out the representation. This means that every place will receive equal representation by the president. If this wasn't evident the big cities, (LA, New York, Chicago, ect.) would recieve more representaion because a candidate needs to only win these cities along with a few more to win the popular vote. It helps small states recieve equal power and representation. Now here's another fact that people usally dont know, when you vote your not choosing who you want for president but your actually voting for which party gets to chooses the electors for that given state, and since every state has adopted the "winner-take-all" approach there is never a mixed amount of votes in a state. (Excluding a few times in which the elector voted againts the parties ideals.)
Hope this helped clear things up if not just say so. smile.gif


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Guitar1969
post Nov 5 2008, 01:26 AM
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What frustrates me most is how people think that the President has all this power and can do whatever he/she wants, but that's just not the case in the way our government is structured(sytem of checks and balances) Now I know Bush has made some mistakes, but it is hilarious how some people heap ALL the blame on him(like Iraq), when there are three branches to our government that all have to be in agreement for action to be taken. At least with a Republican president, we have the democratic congress who keeps things in check. If Obama wins, then we have a democratic congress, and democratic president(Too much power) - All bets are off.

As a businessowner, I might as well close my doors now - Obama thinks that taxing businesses more(over $250k which is pretty much every business I know) and giving to the less fortunate is the answer(Entitlement). What he doesn't seem to understand, is if businesses get hammered too much, they aren't going to have an incentive to try and grow, which means less jobs for everybody; if he wants to stuimulate the economy, provide tax breaks for businesses and watch how it trickles down to the lower class(Unless the lower class rather collect government handouts than to actually work - which seems to be the case in certain situations)

I know there are valid points to both sides, but unfortuantely in this election our choices are rather limited.

At least we will still have GMC.

Now the disclaimer!!! -IMHO


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Ajmurrell
post Nov 5 2008, 01:27 AM
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I'm tracking the news on BBC 1, and online through CNN and FOX (just for fun biggrin.gif)

Fox have so far given West Virginia to the republicans, then taken it back, then given it back, then taken it away, and have now given it back! Not sure if its glitchy script in the site, but it does strengthen my thoughts about FOX!


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Ctodd
post Nov 5 2008, 01:29 AM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Nov 4 2008, 07:16 PM) *
on what specific information do you mean?


any information that is related to opinion. Any media outlet can put a positive (or negative) spin on any idea or opinion, thus distorting it.

its really hard for me to explain, because I have never been good at explaining my thoughts to others... I am a very intricate guy.

bottom line is... it is IMPOSSIBLE to know exactly what goes on in the world unless you are there.



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Muris Varajic
post Nov 5 2008, 01:31 AM
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QUOTE (Ctodd @ Nov 5 2008, 01:29 AM) *
bottom line is... it is IMPOSSIBLE to know exactly what goes on in the world unless you are there.


I guess you're right on that. smile.gif


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Nov 5 2008, 01:33 AM
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Pennsylvania and new hampshire to Obama. Maybe he is going to win smile.gif


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fkalich
post Nov 5 2008, 01:34 AM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 4 2008, 07:20 PM) *
I really can't go to bed sad.gif It's getting to 1am here and I hope it doesn't go all through the night.


He just took Pennsylvania. I say they call it in the next half hour.
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Nov 5 2008, 01:35 AM
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QUOTE (Ctodd @ Nov 5 2008, 01:29 AM) *
any information that is related to opinion. Any media outlet can put a positive (or negative) spin on any idea or opinion, thus distorting it.

its really hard for me to explain, because I have never been good at explaining my thoughts to others... I am a very intricate guy.

bottom line is... it is IMPOSSIBLE to know exactly what goes on in the world unless you are there.


I happen to be on one of those places actually. US has build the largest military base in south eastern Europe on Serbia territory, disintegrating the country, and took away this part of the territory. This is just a minor example actually, because currently, the management of this trivial issue is left to third level officials in congress, while of course the big shots are doing Iraq. And I don't think I have to actually be in Iraq to know what is going on there..


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Nov 5 2008, 01:35 AM
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Infact he's taking everything lol it seems biggrin.gif


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swingline
post Nov 5 2008, 01:37 AM
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QUOTE (Guitar1969 @ Nov 4 2008, 05:26 PM) *
What frustrates me most is how people think that the President has all this power and can do whatever he/she wants, but that's just not the case in the way our government is structured(sytem of checks and balances) Now I know Bush has made some mistakes, but it is hilarious how some people heap ALL the blame on him(like Iraq), when there are three branches to our government that all have to be in agreement for action to be taken. At least with a Republican president, we have the democratic congress who keeps things in check. If Obama wins, then we have a democratic congress, and democratic president(Too much power) - All bets are off.


Yes and no, Bush expanded the president's power greatly and Cheney also way overstepped his boundaries. The difference here is that for some time Bush had a congress in which the majority party in both houses were Republican and the Democrats had very weak calendar and committee entanglements. Along with this the whip had become increasingly moderate which was no help. Bush had blank check powers and abused them. Here both Obama and Biden have expericenced the Senate and can tell exactly what is going on. (Bush had no clue on how the Legislative Branch worked.) This crisis calls for a stronger force than a powerless president. We need a mini FDR you might say. wink.gif But yes the president will always be a scapegoat because its alot easier to point one finger than nearly 300. biggrin.gif


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fkalich
post Nov 5 2008, 01:38 AM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 4 2008, 07:35 PM) *
Infact he's taking everything lol it seems biggrin.gif


Penn was the one big contested state. There are 6 in the east. McCain had to take 5 of them to have a chance. Now he would have to take all the last 5. He might take one.
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OrganisedConfusi...
post Nov 5 2008, 01:39 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 5 2008, 12:38 AM) *
Penn was the one big contested state. There are 6 in the east. McCain had to take 5 of them to have a chance. Now he would have to take all the last 5. He might take one.

I guess if he takes Florida now or Ohio or another big one then that is it?


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Ajmurrell
post Nov 5 2008, 01:44 AM
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QUOTE (Ctodd @ Nov 5 2008, 12:29 AM) *
bottom line is... it is IMPOSSIBLE to know exactly what goes on in the world unless you are there.


Even then you have some bias, two people could view the same event in extremely different ways, even though they witnessed it first hand, as a primary source.

World events are so complicated, and very difficult to come to an educated and unbiased statement (not opinion) and I feel that far too many people, on the internet more than anywhere else especially, voice their opinions as statements and ignore any emotional bias they may have compared to the next person.

In MY opinion wink.gif

This post has been edited by Ajmurrell: Nov 5 2008, 01:45 AM


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fkalich
post Nov 5 2008, 01:51 AM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 4 2008, 07:39 PM) *
I guess if he takes Florida now or Ohio or another big one then that is it?


Yeah, probably Fl will be first, it is going his way, the polls were right on. A lot of the states are sure things for one or the other, so predictable.

QUOTE (Ajmurrell @ Nov 4 2008, 07:44 PM) *
Even then you have some bias, two people could view the same event in extremely different ways, even though they witnessed it first hand, as a primary source.

World events are so complicated, and very difficult to come to an educated and unbiased statement (not opinion) and I feel that far too many people, on the internet more than anywhere else especially, voice their opinions as statements and ignore any emotional bias they may have compared to the next person.

In MY opinion wink.gif


I base my views on a very solid background in American, European, and World history, from that a basic understanding of man's institutions, how they work, what makes them tick. I do agree with what most have said, that generally the choice won't matter too much. But sometimes it does, this is one of those times.
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Ajmurrell
post Nov 5 2008, 01:55 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 5 2008, 12:51 AM) *
I base my views on a very solid background in American, European, and World history, from that a basic understanding of man's institutions, how they work, what makes them tick. I do agree with what most have said, that generally the choice won't matter too much. But sometimes it does, this is one of those times.


I genuinely didn't mean to point what I said at you, just to be clear smile.gif You made a good point, and just wanted to add to it. smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Nov 5 2008, 02:15 AM
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Ok guys here is my take on this...


I lived in USA from 2001 all the way to 2008 with 2 years break in between when I was studying in Greece and playing in Serbia.

As country it has great possibilities. Everything is there for grabs. You have ability to become anybody you want. In that sense, usa is great.
In sense of politics - it ain't worth at all. Domestic politics and things they serve to their general public is totally different then their foreign politics.


Here is the problem with that country that will never be resolved.
Average american cares about having nice house, good car, watching nfl and having financial sources to have fun every day. Average american doesn't travel the world, he/she doesn't know any history nor geography nor foreign language , for average american usa is all there is on this planet and universe.
Having this kind of mindset in conjuction with the worst media brain washing machinery , you get what you get today. Country where 9/11 happens and there are still people believing that was act of terrorism and some dude named Bin Laden who was trained by same american administration. Wars everywhere around the world for interest. Is it oil , drugs , prostitution or just strategic position so they can later complete their world war 3 plan - you decide.

The way USA is run is very bad and majority of people I have meet hanged out been friends with are very limited and restricted in all the areas I mentioned. Of course there are exceptions but majority doesn't care about rest of the world , they just care for themselves and do whatever us administartion tells them to do.

Having all this in mind, no single president can change usa and the way its run.
People are the only ones who can do that. They can either protest non stop and request answers , accept the life as it is there or just leave that country - which I did in April 2008 and never looked back ever since. Sure I miss some things in USA like Boston Berklee great musicians and friends, girls that I met and had good time and great gigs I went to , but I just don't fit in that arrogant surrounding where people are this is usa everybody should fit our standards.

Again , obama mccain wouldn't change a single thing.

People in usa dont have power nor will to do anything. Being brainwashed by the media made them that way.
I feel sorry for them but if they like the way they are let them live who cares.

I personally don't care who will win. The evil side will win for my country no matter what.


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ace_frehely
post Nov 5 2008, 02:25 AM
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My dads says..Mcain has fought for his country and he knows how hard it is in Irak...What he diddnt know is that Mcain did war crimes and killed alot of inicent people..

dry.gif It gets annoying when i watch those commercials when they threaten eachother..especially republicans do it more..


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