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> Obama Or Mccain (vote Now)
Obama or McCain?
Who do you choose?
Obama [ 115 ] ** [89.84%]
McCain [ 13 ] ** [10.16%]
Total Votes: 128
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MickeM
post Nov 5 2008, 11:20 AM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 11:02 AM) *
If McCain hadn't just been a Bush 2.0 and used negative politics against Obama he may have done better.

Bush Sr was the first release, Bush Jr was infact version 2.0 wink.gif

And don't underestimate the psycological effects of appearance. With the same politics if Obama had stated to be muslim though it wouldn't affect his work what so ever that would have worked against him. If he had stated being homosexual that could have gone either way, probably downhills with the conservative voters but positively recieved as a factor when reaching for "change". But people would have debated that matter as - We can't have a homosexual president; or - Great, this is fresh to me, I'm voting for Obama.

I think psychology played a huge part. Taking in concideration the reseccion and the Bush years which played a big part here. Not so much McCain's fault and you said it yourself, he's a Bush 2.0. You didn't want Bush so you went for Obama, did you concider McCain's politics at all when deselecting him?
Maybe you did but I think many didn't. Many wanted change and went as far from Bush as possible. Others just wanted a black president. Some went into the politic stands of each candidate and choose what they thought was the better candidate, well read up on facts and really into the politics. Their votes should count really.


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Moon Boots
post Nov 5 2008, 11:22 AM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 11:12 AM) *
Al Gore would have been an awful president. Maybe not as bad as Bush but he is the biggest hypocrite alive.

People were more understanding of what Obama could offer than you think. McCain was not even slightly the wrong choice. If America wanted their country to go completely down the pan then McCain would have been the right choice.

McCain had no policies he just kept trying to take Obama down a peg or two with negative politics. Thankfully the people of America saw through his ridiculoud accusations.

I'm pretty certain that most of the UK are very happy with this result. Maybe now we can finally get our army out of Iraq.


Black Americans get a vote my friend. Please stop being so racist. Basically you're saying if Black people didn't get a vote then he wouldn't have won. That is incredibly racist. Black people get the vote. They love Obama and what he stands for and therefore they chose him. That's the reason for it and he has won in loads of states with lower black populations so your opinion doesn't count.

He won nearly 150 more points didn't he? That isn't a slight win. And it isn't all down to Black Americans.

Plus he had to get Afro-Americans to vote which many were first time voters. To be able to get the turn out he did should be praised in itself. Isn't bringing America together what this is all about? Everybody deserves a voice and everybody a vote or do you not believe in freedom of choice?


How dare you call me racist. You have totally missed the point and pulled a pathetic race card. My point is that many of these black americans were voting based on colour (do you honestly think that 97% of black voters were voting purely on Obama's policies????? the margin is clearly too huge for that to be possible). I didn't say that these people shouldn't have a vote (why are you putting that sort of bilge into my mouth!?!?!) I suggested that they were voting because they felt an association to Obama's colour, which is true in many cases.

Personal insults are not encouraged on this board. I was making a statistical point and to call me racist makes you appear very simple minded indeed. You owe me an apology.


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MickeM
post Nov 5 2008, 11:24 AM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 11:20 AM) *
I think most European countries wanted Obama to win.

In fact ALL countries in Europe except for Georgia were pro Obama.
Or maybe that was all countries in the world even.. I think there was one more that was if not pro McCain at least only a narrow win for Obama.


Stay cool ppl! Respect and manners goes here. Don't make it personal


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Moon Boots
post Nov 5 2008, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 5 2008, 11:24 AM) *
Stay cool ppl! Respect and manners goes here. Don't make it personal


Seriously. I've never been called a racist before and quite frankly I'm still extremely shocked by it blink.gif


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Nov 5 2008, 11:27 AM
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QUOTE (Moon Boots @ Nov 5 2008, 10:22 AM) *
How dare you call me racist. You have totally missed the point and pulled a pathetic race card. My point is that many of these black americans were voting based on colour (do you honestly think that 97% of black voters were voting purely on Obama's policies????? the margin is clearly too huge for that to be possible). I didn't say that these people shouldn't have a vote (why are you putting that sort of bilge into my mouth!?!?!) I suggested that they were voting because they felt an association to Obama's colour, which is true in many cases.

Personal insults are not encouraged on this board. I was making a statistical point and to call me racist makes you appear very simple minded indeed. You owe me an apology.

It's not a point though. Obama had to get those votes. Many of those votes came from first time voters that he had to convince that it was worth a vote and that he can help them with his policies. If Hilary had got into power more women would have voted for her than John McCain. It's how things work. Obama did all he had to. He narrowed the white percentage difference that Bush had in 2004, he got more young voters to vote and for him over double what McCain got from young voters and he won every age group apart from the over 65's. McCain had ex army and servicemen vote for him over Obama and more white voters voted for him. You don't complain at that. I don't get your point and it comes across as racist to me. Surely the black voters of American have the right to vote for Obama? You can't say it should be discounted because 97% voted for him. It could be 97% voted but only 40% of Black Americans actually voted at all. You just don't know.

If it was a narrow victory then you could say this affected things but Obama won by a huge margin. A landslide margin. It wasn't even a contest.

This post has been edited by OrganisedConfusion: Nov 5 2008, 11:31 AM


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Marek Rojewski
post Nov 5 2008, 11:28 AM
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No matter we like it or not, black people voted for Obama because he was black, no other characteristic really counted ( in many not all cases of course, but still ).. Still if they didn't the outcome would be most probably the same. MickeyM wrote exactly what made him the president. I don't understand why so many people say that he is a good choice. For me his a person that was in a KGB sponsored youth organisation that has many connections to black racists as well. And I don't care that he "cut" those relations for more votes in the campaign. Anyway it just doesn't matter as he is just a puppet of the people that gave him enough money to win this elections. Without their support he wouldn't have more than few thousand votes.

When it comes to environment, there are many opinions that the global warming has very little to do with our economy, the CO2 emitted by humans to the atmosphere isn't even 1% of the whole world emitting. It's like greenpeace - never acted in China, even though it hurts our planet the most - why? One could say that because China gives cash to Greenpeace to slow down economies of other countries. We can only hope that Obama has more world-friendly sponsors than Gorge W. Bush had, maybe it is in their interest to sell more chips instead of waging wars.

This post has been edited by Marek Rojewski: Nov 5 2008, 11:31 AM


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MickeM
post Nov 5 2008, 11:30 AM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 11:12 AM) *
Al Gore would have been an awful president.

How come you say that, because of that he values the environment and medical care? ohmy.gif


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Nov 5 2008, 11:33 AM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 5 2008, 10:30 AM) *
How come you say that, because of that he values the environment and medical care? ohmy.gif

Yes and he has how many cars and houses and how much does he fly on airlines between everywhere? If you checked out his carbon footprint it'd be a massive impact for one person. That makes him a hypocrite. It's like Bono saying he cares about the environment and paying 10,000 pound to have his hat flown in first class to him. That is hypocritical. Don'y you agree?


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Muris Varajic
post Nov 5 2008, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 11:33 AM) *
Yes and he has how many cars and houses and how much does he fly on airlines between everywhere? If you checked out his carbon footprint it'd be a massive impact for one person. That makes him a hypocrite. It's like Bono saying he cares about the environment and paying 10,000 pound to have his hat flown in first class to him. That is hypocritical. Don'y you agree?


That comes with power,every high level politician or star is acting like that,more or less.
Running a country is something else to,public matter. smile.gif


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MickeM
post Nov 5 2008, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE (Moon Boots @ Nov 5 2008, 11:26 AM) *
Seriously. I've never been called a racist before and quite frankly I'm still extremely shocked by it blink.gif

Don't worry, it's not racism to discuss how votes were divided between races. As little as it is sexism to discuss how votes were divided between men and women.


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Moon Boots
post Nov 5 2008, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 11:27 AM) *
It's not a point though. Obama had to get those votes. Many of those votes came from first time voters that he had to convince that it was worth a vote and that he can help them with his policies. If Hilary had got into power more women would have voted for her than John McCain. It's how things work. Obama did all he had to. He narrowed the white percentage difference that Bush had in 2004, he got more young voters to vote and for him over double what McCain got from young voters and he won every age group apart from the over 65's. McCain had ex army and servicemen vote for him over Obama and more white voters voted for him. You don't complain at that. I don't get your point and it comes across as racist to me. Surely the black voters of American have the right to vote for Obama? You can't say it should be discounted because 97% voted for him. It could be 97% voted but only 40% of Black Americans actually voted at all. You just don't know.


Okay then, you've clearly missed my point. I'll put it down to lack of sleep.

Let me rephrase:

Obama got ~ 100% of black votes
Obama got ~ 50% of white votes

The disparity between these numbers is extremely large and therefore votes were influenced by race. Surely you agree? How you can call me racist for this is truely a mystery - I'm still waiting for an apology.

I didn't say that the white votes weren't influenced either.

One more thing - where did I say that I support McCain? I was merely commmenting that votes are effected by the race of the candidates. Nothing more!!! blink.gif

QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 5 2008, 11:37 AM) *
Don't worry, it's not racism to discuss how votes were divided between races. As little as it is sexism to discuss how votes were divided between men and women.


Thanks MickeM, that is exactly what I'm trying to explain to him.

This post has been edited by Moon Boots: Nov 5 2008, 11:44 AM


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Marek Rojewski
post Nov 5 2008, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 5 2008, 11:37 AM) *
Don't worry, it's not racism to discuss how votes were divided between races. As little as it is sexism to discuss how votes were divided between men and women.


Exactly. Yet I wonder how many times we will hear that when someone will criticise Obama, he will be called a racist dry.gif
My cousin is in a university degree that is lectured in English and there are two black people in the group ( whole group is only 7 people but that isn't the case ). One teacher unabled them passing to another year, because they didn't learn his topics. He was than fired ( the teacher ) because he was called racist. It doesn't matter that he was right...


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MickeM
post Nov 5 2008, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 11:33 AM) *
Yes and he has how many cars and houses and how much does he fly on airlines between everywhere? If you checked out his carbon footprint it'd be a massive impact for one person. That makes him a hypocrite. It's like Bono saying he cares about the environment and paying 10,000 pound to have his hat flown in first class to him. That is hypocritical. Don'y you agree?

Al Gore's time is of value. If he can make it from one town to another in 2 hours by plane instead of 5 hours by train that's worth something. We have to accept that everybodys time isn't valued the same, for example being the president of the USA forces you have to be effective and plan your time to make the most of it. If Al Gore takes a plane rather than the train there's still a huge winning on the environment because of what he does with the time gained.
Sure, that would in fact spare the environment but probably lots of deals will go down the drain because of lack of time if you sum it all up during a years time, which in turn would have a negative effect in the long run.

I think it's not even a valid discussion - as appears also here regarding our politicians - that they should take the train, the tube or a bicycle rather than a cab or a plane. For people in leading positions time is extemely important, we can't force them to be like "us" because "they should live as they learn or they are hypocrits". That's narrow sighted.


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Nov 5 2008, 11:57 AM
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QUOTE (Moon Boots @ Nov 5 2008, 10:43 AM) *
Okay then, you've clearly missed my point. I'll put it down to lack of sleep.

Let me rephrase:

Obama got ~ 100% of black votes
Obama got ~ 50% of white votes

The disparity between these numbers is extremely large and therefore votes were influenced by race. Surely you agree? How you can call me racist for this is truely a mystery - I'm still waiting for an apology.

I didn't say that the white votes weren't influenced either.

One more thing - where did I say that I support McCain? I was merely commmenting that votes are effected by the race of the candidates. Nothing more!!! blink.gif

He also won a large proportion of hispanic votes. I don't get your point. He deserved to win because he got those votes. It doesn't matter if 97% voted for him. Like I said it may have been the case that only 40% of black people eligible to vote actually voted. The facts are that Obama won by an absolutely huge margin and in some places overturned 20% leads for the republicans in the last election. He did a great job. I looked into all the policies and what they were offering and to me Obama was the riskiest by far but if he keeps his word I believe it will make a better America.

I'm afraid I don't apologise to anybody. I'm a psychologist and can usually pick up on meaning very well. Well psychologist and engineer smile.gif If it annoyed or offended you then that wasn't what I was trying to achieve.


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Moon Boots
post Nov 5 2008, 12:19 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 11:57 AM) *
He also won a large proportion of hispanic votes. I don't get your point. He deserved to win because he got those votes. It doesn't matter if 97% voted for him. Like I said it may have been the case that only 40% of black people eligible to vote actually voted. The facts are that Obama won by an absolutely huge margin and in some places overturned 20% leads for the republicans in the last election. He did a great job. I looked into all the policies and what they were offering and to me Obama was the riskiest by far but if he keeps his word I believe it will make a better America.

I'm afraid I don't apologise to anybody. I'm a psychologist and can usually pick up on meaning very well. Well psychologist and engineer smile.gif If it annoyed or offended you then that wasn't what I was trying to achieve.


You believe that the candidate with the most votes deserves to win? Think about that for a second. Did Hitler deserve to win his election?
This is such a terribly flawed argument that I honestly don't know what to say to this.

If it annoyed or offended me? Oh no, I'm perfectly fine with being called a racist huh.gif

As others in this thread have agreed, my posts where not racist at all. And, to be honest, if I'm offended by anything I'm offended by people who take away other people's right to voice their views by shouting "RACIST!!!!!" at them.

This post has been edited by Moon Boots: Nov 5 2008, 12:24 PM


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Nov 5 2008, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE (Moon Boots @ Nov 5 2008, 11:19 AM) *
You believe that the candidate with the most votes deserves to win? Think about that for a second. Did Hitler deserve to win his election?
This is such a terribly flawed argument that I honestly don't know what to say to this.

If it annoyed or offended me? Oh no, I'm perfectly fine with being called a racist huh.gif

As others in this thread have agreed, my posts where not racist at all. And, to be honest, if I'm offended by anything I'm offended by people who take away other people's right to voice their views by shouting "RACIST!!!!!" at them.

In a democratic system the person with the most votes deserves to win. But also Obama won the popular vote and the American system of votes by a huge amount.

And I'm always annoyed by people shouting that people are being racist but with your text alone and having no sign of manner of talking or the context your post looked like it was being racist saying that black people voted for Obama but this in text can be seen to suggest that black people shouldn't be allowed to vote in huge amounts for him.

Hopefully I got the context of your text wrong and that isn't the case. Ad


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Moon Boots
post Nov 5 2008, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 12:40 PM) *
In a democratic system the person with the most votes deserves to win. But also Obama won the popular vote and the American system of votes by a huge amount.


I believe that the best candidate deserves to win - not the one with the most votes wink.gif

QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 12:40 PM) *
Hopefully I got the context of your text wrong and that isn't the case. Ad


Friends again? unsure.gif

laugh.gif


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MickeM
post Nov 5 2008, 12:55 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 12:40 PM) *
In a democratic system the person with the most votes deserves to win.

I'm glad to see you think Al Gore deserved to win in 2000 wink.gif


QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 12:40 PM) *
And I'm always annoyed by people shouting that people are being racist but with your text alone and having no sign of manner of talking or the context your post looked like it was being racist saying that black people voted for Obama but this in text can be seen to suggest that black people shouldn't be allowed to vote in huge amounts for him.

Now I'm confused. Trust me, that couldn't be interpreted at all from reading the text.
Maybe this can be left behind us. Let's instead see what happens with Obama in the oval office?


I think we'll see some change after all if he ties the knot together. Raised gas price and environmental taxes will be felt aswell as industries increased expenses for polluting but with lowered income tax that could even it out. If gas price is part of the environmental tax or if it's just for industries. Maybe someone can enlighten me?

As a foreigner I'm pleased that he will take his politics outside the borders of the USA and he's dropping Bush's "for or against" stand.

I'll be most positive when and if the environmental work shows effect. I think there's a lot to gain there. Also the healt care program should have a humanitary effect, gladdens me that kids in particular gets the mandatory insurance.

Overall Obama seem like a liberal leader. I'm fairly optimistic. Not jumping yet but I might if good things start to happen.
Many plans, like withdrawing from Iraq has a date set so it'll be easy to measure the degree of success.

Please add!

This post has been edited by MickeM: Nov 5 2008, 12:55 PM


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Nov 5 2008, 01:05 PM
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QUOTE (Moon Boots @ Nov 5 2008, 11:51 AM) *
I believe that the best candidate deserves to win - not the one with the most votes wink.gif

Yeah but different people will have a different best candidate. A democratic way is the fairest way in my opinion.You could normalise weird results but I don't think that would help. If you had polled the world on the leader of America I think Obama would have won by a ridiculously huge margin. I think Americans want to give Obama a chance to deliver on his promises and he will have 4 years. If he doesn't start working on them in that time he will be gone but it's worth giving him a chance.

And yeah friends again. I don't have enemies anyway laugh.gif Well apart from guitarists that can play better than me biggrin.gif Which is half the globe. tongue.gif

I think normalising the black voters would still have left Obama winning as McCain only appealed to over 65 White Males and he lost the hispanic vote which Bush got a high proportion of I believe. So there were others areas that caused McCain to lose. I don't see why some Americans are so against Obama. He won by a huge margin which shows he deserved it. It's not as if he won by a margin of 5 or whatever it was with Bush and Al Gore.

QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 5 2008, 11:55 AM) *
I'm glad to see you think Al Gore deserved to win in 2000 wink.gif

There is a huge difference between the UK democratic system and US one though. biggrin.gif The popular vote didn't win that year because of the American system but that is what I'm getting at Obama won the popular vote by 5% and the american electorate college what not by about 180 points. That is a no contest.

QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 5 2008, 11:55 AM) *
Overall Obama seem like a liberal leader. I'm fairly optimistic. Not jumping yet but I might if good things start to happen.
Many plans, like withdrawing from Iraq has a date set so it'll be easy to measure the degree of success.

Please add!

Personally I hope he pulls out of Iraq by a certain date and like you said that can be easily measured. I think the health system in America does need to be revised but not to the state of the UK system where we have to wait a lifetime for any operations. biggrin.gif

I also think he should ban firearms in small waves across the country and slowly rather than all at once as it could create chaos but I think it should be done.

Most importantly he needs to sort out the economy. He needs to be a huge influence in that area. The people high up in banks that failed need to be got rid of and replaced. No more crazy bonuses for bank managers that fall behind strict figures.

A lot needs to be changed. The whole world's view of America needs to be changed.


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MickeM
post Nov 5 2008, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 5 2008, 01:01 PM) *
There is a huge difference between the UK democratic system and US one though. biggrin.gif The popular vote didn't win that year because of the American system but that is what I'm getting at Obama won the popular vote by 5% and the american electorate college what not by about 180 points. That is a no contest.

Yeah Obama won it fair and square and probably for the better for all of us.
Al Gore won the populatiry vote but there was a draw in elector votes while.. oh I don't recall exactly but Bush claimed the win after a recount of Florida by some 500 votes favor. Court judged towards Bush's and Al pled defeat while the next recount showed Al Gore as winner but it had already been settled by then.
Not so fair play surely, we can not even know one percent of the game beind the scenes. huh.gif


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