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> Obama Or Mccain (vote Now)
Obama or McCain?
Who do you choose?
Obama [ 115 ] ** [89.84%]
McCain [ 13 ] ** [10.16%]
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fkalich
post Nov 4 2008, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE (rokchik @ Nov 4 2008, 01:24 PM) *
some credit in taking on Palin as his running mate. She seems rather ill equipped to be VP, but Biden doesn't really scream confidence either. Either way I think it's going to be a lot closer then most think....

It will be an interesting evening to say the least.


Letting Palin run it would be like letting a 6 year old drive a truck. Seriously. She was mayor of a small town in Alaska 2 years ago, and then Gov of Alaska, one of our least populated states. Just listen to her talk, that tell all.

Biden has been around, his is no dummy. He could handle the job, she could not.

McCain's picking her illustrates how I have felt about him for years. He is a dolt. He graduated 899th our of 954 at the Navel Academy, bottom 1%. He has been given a pass for the POW thing. He is a dolt, and grossly over rated, has always been.

Obama is very talented, and has had major players around him for 6 years grooming him for the Presidency.
He is very well advised.

Hillary was ok, but people just naturally did not like here, that would have worked against her. People like Obama.

edit: just to make a point, Bush has an estimated I.Q. of 127. McCain has an estimated I.Q. of 115. Based on testing in college. There you go. You all thought Bush was stupid. Take away 12 I.Q. points, maybe more as he is 72 now.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Nov 4 2008, 07:31 PM
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Andrew Cockburn
post Nov 4 2008, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 4 2008, 01:01 PM) *
You are saying nationalize it but don't nationalize it. For all practical purposes, controlling prices means nationalization.


We could discuss that ... I don't claim to have all the answers, but by controlling prices I am talking about effects not necessarily government policies. In capitalists societies, costs are generally controlled through competition - why isn't that working here? That's the sort of question I would prefer to ask and address ahead of taking the whole industry public. I am by no means an expert in US health finance though, so maybe this is a naive assumption on my part.

QUOTE
When anyone wants to tell me how great our system is compared to others, I like to show them this chart, and have them explain why that is.
[attachment=10991:cost_longlife75.gif]


At first sight that's a compelling chart - but its really just a soundbite, or should that be eye-bite? As you and I know the reality is way more complex than that.

It could mean what you want it to mean, or it could mean that homeless beggars in Spain live longer with no legs and chronic diseases, than people in the US that benefit from artificial limbs and antibiotics - my point being that length of life is not necessarily the only measure of the effectiveness of health care.

One thing that graph does very clearly show is that the US does pay way more on health care than anywhere else, and here I agree with you - whatever reform takes place it should be aimed towards extracting value from that money for the end users of the health care, and making it more accessible. I'm not however a believer in the extreme opposite to this that nationalised healthcare represents, as it is hard to do it well.

To be fair, I have heard talk that France has an exceptional nationally run health service, so it sounds like it is possible, although I also believe that France has way higher taxes than the US and I'm not a Tax & Spend kind of guy.


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jer
post Nov 4 2008, 07:35 PM
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QUOTE
I don't want it to be as easy at going to the toilet. Seriously, if a person won't take just a bit of effort to vote, then what does that tell you about them? I personally am glad if the lazy asses of the world don't vote.

I am not directing this at you, just want to make sure that is clear. Just think a bit of effort should be part of the process, it eliminates the shiftless/lazy from the process, and I don't think that the shiftless/lazy ass segment of society is the one to direct it the best.


I know you arent aiming that at me. Its all good.

I disagree. I think if the country is to choose its leader, then that leader should be chosen by the majority.

Didnt you just say "Everybody should particpate?" Do their duty?

Yeah, what would happen if EVERYBODY voted? ohmy.gif

The current system isnt "the people".







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Andrew Cockburn
post Nov 4 2008, 07:38 PM
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Ok, this is starting to become a shouting match - lets steer clear of insulting the candidate please ...


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Nov 4 2008, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (Ctodd @ Nov 4 2008, 06:11 PM) *
picture a world without Islamic extremism (aka terrorism)...

Picture a world without American extremism (aka terrorism)..

It's the same thing. You can't lump people together just like Andrew said to me. There are extremists in every country and in every religious background. I hate it when people are racist and just mention Islamic Extremism. It's this closed mind that led to the war in Iraq.

There are extremists in all countries and of all cultures and background.

Just because I'm not a terrorist doesn't mean all the English Agnostics are not terrorists.

And this isn't having a go it's just saying don't lump people together. I tend to do it too much also sad.gif

This post has been edited by OrganisedConfusion: Nov 4 2008, 07:40 PM


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Smikey2006
post Nov 4 2008, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 4 2008, 08:43 AM) *
If you have not voted, you probably have seen this, but just a reminder of what we are a 72 year old's heart beat away from if McCain were to win.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjZW4z9zqqY



QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 4 2008, 10:35 AM) *
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"?

--Mark Twain


Amen


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post Nov 4 2008, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 4 2008, 01:39 PM) *
Picture a world without American extremism (aka terrorism)..

It's the same thing. You can't lump people together just like Andrew said to me. There are extremists in every country and in every religious background. I hate it when people are racist and just mention Islamic Extremism. It's this closed mind that led to the war in Iraq.

There are extremists in all countries and of all cultures and background.

Just because I'm not a terrorist doesn't mean all the English Agnostics are not terrorists.

And this isn't having a go it's just saying don't lump people together. I tend to do it too much also sad.gif


Heh, you just made me proud OC smile.gif


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rokchik
post Nov 4 2008, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Nov 4 2008, 02:29 PM) *
Letting Palin run it would be like letting a 6 year old drive a truck. Seriously. She was mayor of a small town in Alaska 2 years ago, and then Gov of Alaska, one of our least populated states. Just listen to her talk, that tell all.

Biden has been around, his is no dummy. He could handle the job, she could not.

McCain's picking her illustrates how I have felt about him for years. He is a dolt. He graduated 899th our of 954 at the Navel Academy, bottom 1%. He has been given a pass for the POW thing. He is a dolt, and grossly over rated, has always been.

Obama is very talented, and has had major players around him for 6 years grooming him for the Presidency.
He is very well advised.

Hillary was ok, but people just naturally did not like here, that would have worked against her. People like Obama.

edit: just to make a point, Bush has an estimated I.Q. of 127. McCain has an estimated I.Q. of 115. Based on testing in college. There you go. You all thought Bush was stupid. Take away 12 I.Q. points, maybe more as he is 72 now.


When Mc Cain picked Palin, I took it as just political strategy... albeit a bad one. You had everyone talking about the historic impact of this election with an African American and a woman both vying for the possibility to become President. When Obama won over Hilary, the Mc Cain camp seemed to jump on the bandwagon for their VP candidate. This may be wrong but it's how I viewed it. And I agree, Palin really should have taken some public speaking classes before she joined the campaign... with Bush gone and if Mc Cain/Palin loses I don't know who SNL will make fun of...

EDIT: In all fairness though... it's a pretty big microscope to be put under. I'd never be able to stand the pressure and scrutney these candidates endure. No one even cared Canada had an election... the whole world cares about the US one.

This post has been edited by rokchik: Nov 4 2008, 07:46 PM
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OrganisedConfusi...
post Nov 4 2008, 07:44 PM
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I'm going to be watching the footage through the night smile.gif I think Obama should win easily and it will be great for relations around the world I think and he will change things drastically and it could mess everything up OR it could solve everything. I think USA will benefit from giving him a chance and having him in office for 4 years.


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jer
post Nov 4 2008, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE
There are extremists in every country and in every religious background.


Picture a world without religion. smile.gif



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misterj
post Nov 4 2008, 07:47 PM
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i stood in line yesterday for 3 hours and voted for obama. im tired of being hated by the world against my will. i dont support our current president and i believe that since mccain voted with him over 90 percent of the time, than he will be the same. i would much rather my taxes pay for a better healthcare system that a ridiculous war. i love my country (as we all love our countries) but i hate the way so many americans think that the world revolves around us. how arrogant is it to constantly tell other countries that "we are the greatest country in the world". what if i constantly told other PEOPLE that i was the greatest PERSON in the world? not to mention the fact that many and more of the same injustices and human rights violations happen in countries OTHER than just the ones in the middle east, but since they have nothing to offer us (OIL) we have no interest. i think that its a joke that we are told so often that our wars are based on some sort of moral high ground (to borrow a phrase from Andrew), when thats just a way to trick everyone into supporting the greed that plagues human nature. we are all great people from great countries and i cant wait to live in an america that views the rest of the world as our equals, instead of someone to bully to get what we want. Maybe when we give that respect we will not be perceived as we are and have been even it this thread. there are MANY in the u.s. who share these opinions, and hopefully, the next president (whoever that may be) will hear them.
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jer
post Nov 4 2008, 07:48 PM
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Misterj....

Very well said.

I hope that happens someday.


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post Nov 4 2008, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Nov 4 2008, 06:44 PM) *
Picture a world without religion. smile.gif

Again though there are great religious figures that have done good for the world.


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fatb0t
post Nov 4 2008, 07:54 PM
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+1 to Jer


Anyways, I have bad news for those who thing government is an easy thing to change. The US fore fathers specifically erected a system that is REALLY difficult to over haul, disassemble or change. Back during the Clinton years they constantly campaigned about changing the health care system, it was a pivotal piece of their campaign... Did they change the health care system substantially? No, infact it was almost a failure. Sweeping change in a government is not an over night thing. I am personally for Obama, I believe he believes in his message - which is good, I also share a lot of the same thoughts as he (though certainly not all). I'm just not so sure he realizes how difficult it is to make change in government.

I know for sure, regardless who will win - change won't be immediate.

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fkalich
post Nov 4 2008, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE (rokchik @ Nov 4 2008, 01:43 PM) *
EDIT: In all fairness though... it's a pretty big microscope to be put under. I'd never be able to stand the pressure and scrutney these candidates endure. No one even cared Canada had an election... the whole world cares about the US one.


She just showed herself not to be qualified. Being qualified does not mean experienced exactly. Some people with limited experience are qualified. Obama is only a 4 year senator, but the guy has been around great advisers, major players, for a long time. And he has been in the Senate, which is a long ways from 2 years mayor of a small town and two years in the Gov Mansion in Alaska. Seriously, her being in that office should put people in absolute terror, not because she is a bad person, but because she is totally out of her league, obviously.

And McCain showed his lack of judgment taking her. How a guy runs a campaign is telling. When they do stupid things in the campaign, expect that to occur when they are president, and have to make choices.

QUOTE (misterj @ Nov 4 2008, 01:47 PM) *
i stood in line yesterday for 3 hours and voted for obama. im tired of being hated by the world against my will. i dont


I stood in line for zero minutes, went right up to the booth. Lawrence is a great place to live. Got out and you know, the air just seemed great, the trees in the park were beautiful, just seemed like a new day coming.

I have a lot of confidence in Obama, he is well advised. That is key. And I hope for 60 Dems in the Senate, crossing my fingers.

For those of you that don't know, there is a peculiar element to Senate protocol. So long as you keep taking, you can delay a vote. It is called a fillibuster. You need 60 votes to end discussion and force a vote. That is why that why 60 votes would be a big deal. The american system is pretty screwy, but I think all the screwy things balance out, and make it a good political system in the long run.
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post Nov 4 2008, 08:04 PM
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From an outsiders view this doesn't even look close. Is this wrong or has Obama got a good lead certainly?


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fatb0t
post Nov 4 2008, 08:07 PM
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Where I live, even though it's New York a notoriously Democratic state I'm hearing a lot of pull for McCain. I find during these elections, a lot of votes are 'lost' or 'invalidated' so we can only wait to find out...
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post Nov 4 2008, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 4 2008, 02:04 PM) *
From an outsiders view this doesn't even look close. Is this wrong or has Obama got a good lead certainly?


Most of the latest pols put them within the margin for error, but most of them put Obama slightly ahead, so he probably is marginally ahead in truth.


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fkalich
post Nov 4 2008, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Nov 4 2008, 02:04 PM) *
From an outsiders view this doesn't even look close. Is this wrong or has Obama got a good lead certainly?


oh well garsh darn .....this darn tootin wahoo is askin a pretty tough question ....ill just have to get a rain check on that one and ill be sure to get back to you....okie doky. wink wink.


No, it is over. polls are pretty accurate today. This is not like it was in 1948. Should be an early night.

QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Nov 4 2008, 02:09 PM) *
Most of the latest pols put them within the margin for error, but most of them put Obama slightly ahead, so he probably is marginally ahead in truth.


I don't think so. I realize some have said that, but that has been to generate interest. They have focused on a few polls, but overall, his lead is bigger than ever if anything. Except for the Fox News Poll, where McCain is coming back.

Here are the last polls, and the trend line, up all the way on average. Also keep in mind that while margin of error applies to individual polls, it pretty much approaches zero when you average a lot of them.

Attached Image

This post has been edited by fkalich: Nov 4 2008, 09:22 PM
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post Nov 4 2008, 09:51 PM
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Obama is an ultra-liberal socialist... A change is good, but this wouldn't be a change for the better.
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