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> Using Amp/effect Modelling To Find Real Alternatives?, Going on the quest of quests.. finding _the_ sound
Wilska
post Nov 21 2008, 10:09 PM
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Soo, just got myself a new amp and am trying it out, loving it actually. But right now I have no effects or pedals at all except my wah.
I haven't had any amp at all for 2 years or so, i've been playing through a line 6 pod (using x3 live right now).

here's my questions/thoughts:
are the effect modellings accurate to how an effect adds to the sound?
I don't have much knowledge about different effects and pedals, so I wonder if for example I think that the overdrive pedal in my pod is very important and I would like something similar in reality. Would buying an overdrive change my amps sound in a similar fashion?
I don't know if I explain it correctly. I don't want my amp to sound like my pod, I just want my already distorted amp to get the same "CAWCHUUUNG" that my pod amps get when I add the overdrive effect.

I hope anyone udnerstands what I just wrote, cause I can hardly understand it myself =)
sorry for the english


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R ecording: Blackstar HT-DistX, Line6 Pod X3 Live
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MickeM
post Nov 21 2008, 11:35 PM
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A real tube amp is always better for warmth and "real" tube sound wink.gif

But I think the modeling effects have done wonders the past few years. Recording or even running a POD X3 through a PA is a teriffic solution if you don't want to carry a heavy amp around.

OD pedals does, besides pushing real tubes in a real tube amp, also simulate the sound of a tube amp being pushed. In a POD or similar I don't think an OD pedal would do any good what so ever, I havn't tried myself since I always thought there would be no use.

Point is. In a POD the OD will still be useful since it simulates the sound of a puched tube amp. Same thing when people put it before a solid state amp, it's not the real thing but it still works since it simulates the sound of a pushed tube amp.
Effect pedals makers could hardly sell OD pedals that only pushed the signal from the guitar, what would that do to a SS amp? Raise the volume? 90% of all users woule be angry and disappointed since most people buy an OD to get distortion on a SS amp, which IMO is not right but it works, obviously.
Maybe we should have Tube OD pedals and OD simulation pedals huh?

Running the POD X3, I have one too, hasn't been very successful on my account. Still sound a bit plastic when I try to use it as a pure effects board. Must confess I had greater joy in running it into the loop as a preamp or even as a modeling amp to make my Peavey Classic sound as a ENGL Powerball.

So as far as I'm concerned
POD X3 -> PA is OK
POD X3 -> tube amp (whether it's the loop or infron) is NOT ok

I havn't tried it with a tube amp but not knowing if you have a solid state or tube I choose to reply anyway wink.gif It might work better with a SS amp since it's digital->digital

So to answer your question. If you have a tube amp I'd suggest you get a good OD pedal. I've got a Digitech Bad Monkey, I think it's the best bang for the buck. There are better OD pedals for sure but this one is just great for me.
If you've got a solid state amp I suggest you try. Like I said, OD pedals will infact simulate the sound of an overdriven tube amp so for that matter it would work. But it may work as well through the POD. I just don't know.


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audiopaal
post Nov 22 2008, 12:04 AM
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Great answer Micke smile.gif
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Nov 22 2008, 01:28 AM
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The overdrive pedal will give you a better quality distortion than any modeling device, specially when playing loud on a guitar amp. PODs are made for home practice, not live playing. Going to PA as MickeM suggested is a best solution for POD, but still it is not as the real amp. Also there are some other proc devices like Roland V88 or V99 that do that job a whole lot better. They are the real proc deal compared to POD. I also agree 100% with MickeM when he says that it is much much easier to carry around proc than a big bunsh of heavy gear.
The bottom line is that if you wanna buy an OD pedal you will not make a mistake, but be careful what you buy. Try several pedals in the store on the similar gear configuration that you own, and you will find the one that suits you.

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: Nov 22 2008, 01:29 AM


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Gus
post Nov 22 2008, 02:21 AM
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I actually have kind of similar experience. I never owned real good amps (had a couple of practice ones) but I owned POD XT live and now POD X3 live. I do use the POD as amp replacement in small gigs. It is quit ok for what you pay and specially for the weight you have to carry. One downside is that you have to readjust all your patches for each venue you play. So actually you should not have like 50 patches, but maybe up to 8 you are going to use live. If I remember correctly, Smells mentioned in another thread that he gave up using the POD for live performances because of that.

Before having a POD I had never owned real effect pedals. So though it was a bit overwhelming in the beginning it was also good to have a general idea of what kind of effects are there and what a good effect chain would be. I even have in mind the first pedal I will buy: a good wah-wah. That will free the pedal on POD to be only volume.

I have to say first time I played through a fender dual reverb or first time I tried a Marshall JVM , I had that "wow" feeling cool.gif . Meaning that the POD is not the sound you can get from a real good all tube amp.

All in all I am satisfied with the POD. It is serving well now that I am playing really small gigs and I have to carry my equipment walking or in the bus. In the future when, hopefully, I will be playing big gigs it would still serve as home recording equipment and as a backup (I heard of a guy who had feedback problem in a big gig, and then took his POD to the PA and finally could play it ohmy.gif )

This post has been edited by Gus: Nov 22 2008, 02:24 AM


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fkalich
post Nov 22 2008, 03:05 AM
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edit: never mind, read existing reviews on questions asked.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Nov 22 2008, 04:06 AM
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Wilska
post Nov 22 2008, 02:19 PM
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Thanks for the answers guys, really appreciate it. Tho I think most of you missunderstood my post a little, as I said I didn't know how to explain what I ment.
Ofcourse I didn't mean my pod x3 VS a real pedal/amp. I recently got a tube amp (krank rev jr) that I play through and here in sweden it's not like they carry this amp in the stores so it's hard for me to go try different effect pedals on my own amp.

I ment like this: if i'm using ONLY the pod and choose for example the jcm 800 model, and then add an OD the POD sound changes in a certain way. Is the _way_ the pedal sounds the amp-sound IN the pod a good indication of how to relationship OD/Amp works. I think that's the best way I can explain my thoughts. Hope I don't add to the confusion!

Your answers helped tho and i'm going searching for an OD next week.
Also, what reverbs would you guys recommend i'd check out? not buying one right now but I will soon enough.

thanks

This post has been edited by Wilska: Nov 22 2008, 02:41 PM


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------ Wilska's Gear ------

G uitars: Gibson Flying V Faded '67, ESP Ltd Alexi 600, Jackson Kelly KE3
P ickups: SD Blackout, Emg 81/85
A mp: Krank Rev Jr Pro
E ffects: Ibanez Weeping Demon Wah, Digitech Hardwire CM-2, Digitech Hardwire DL-8, MXR Phase 90
R ecording: Blackstar HT-DistX, Line6 Pod X3 Live
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Ivan Milenkovic
post Nov 22 2008, 03:01 PM
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What do you need a reverb pedal for mate? If it is for live shows perhaps it is better to consider a dealy pedal. Reverb can muffle the sound and change the harmonics, but delay can add space and still retain clarity. If you do need a reverb, how much money you wanna spend?


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Noangels
post Nov 24 2008, 03:12 PM
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Wilska

If your talking about adding the virtual OD pedals in a chain on the pod using the JCM800 as the amp head,then yes that is a very good reflection on what that combination would sound like.The enginers at Line 6 have spent many years fine tuning their products and if a big name like Greg Howe can record a few tracks with one and do that Justin Timberlake tour with a Pod Pro Head then there good enough to use from anyone-tube snobs included:)

I think you could use the pods virtual pedals as a tool to see what they sound like fronting one of the amp designs that matches the tone your Krank is pushing out.Its not going to be the best way to audition pedals but it will give you a rough Idea as to how they sound

I am with you with the reverb,I love to have that depth added to my tone on the amp and normaly add delay too the solo settings for bigger sound.

You should be able to add your pods reverb to your amp in the fx loop(if the amp has one)

Funny thing with the pods is there designed for recording,but I find like others here that tube amps sound a lot better recorded the old way with a mic and cab-but putting a pod through a PA(as i have done many times)and it keeps up with the tube amps realy well.If i was ever to record withy the pod again it would be through miced PA speakers rather than the direct out



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Darfuria
post Nov 24 2008, 03:22 PM
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On the subject of reverb pedals - I've got a fantastic Ibanez delay/reverb pedal that works beautifully.

Maybe that would be something to consider?

http://www.ibanez.co.jp/world/country/frame_uk.html

I quite like these Ibanez pedals because of the push-in knobs that prevent you from accidentally changing settings when you're carrying them around, or using them on stage.


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Mike Weaver
post Dec 31 2008, 04:36 PM
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Wilska,

I am not sure your question was answered fully and I ran into this while researching something similar. You can use your line6 effect routing as a guide to try and duplicate the sound but it will be highly dependent on what other gear that you are using. If you have a good amp with good distortion then you can probably get close to the tone of the line6, and actually should get better tone. An add on distortion such as a tube screamer should do approximately the same thing as it did as modeled by line6. The important thing is to start with a good amp and good tone to begin with and add on. If your amp sounds like crap then no number of effects will fix it.

One thing I did was look at how other people set up the same amp. Mesa Boogie is good enough to give you sample settings. I also looked on google to see how Mark Tremonti set up his dual rectifier and I set my tone settings to the same position and got a great sound. Depending on what amp you are using you may not get so lucky so you will have to play with your treble, mids, presence, and bass to get the sound you want. I find that you can make a great amp sound like crap if you don't have the controls set.

Line6 has some very cool preset that may be all but impossible to duplicate. I can run xtLive into the effects loop return of my amp and it bypasses the preamp section and routes direcly to the power amp section. I then get all the line6 tone with a little bit of oomph added by the power amp section.

The other thing I absolutely agree on is that I can't get the line6 to sound good as just an effect box. I tried to delete the amp on some of the presets and just use the effects and it sounds like crap. So you will need to add a real effects processor or multiple effect boxes to your amp and forget about using your line6 in this way. Line6 also does not have a real bypass. It will always color the sound slightly even when turning off the entire amp and effects chain or using calibration seetings.







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opeth.db
post Dec 31 2008, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Nov 21 2008, 05:35 PM) *
A real tube amp is always better for warmth and "real" tube sound wink.gif

But I think the modeling effects have done wonders the past few years. Recording or even running a POD X3 through a PA is a teriffic solution if you don't want to carry a heavy amp around.

OD pedals does, besides pushing real tubes in a real tube amp, also simulate the sound of a tube amp being pushed. In a POD or similar I don't think an OD pedal would do any good what so ever, I havn't tried myself since I always thought there would be no use.

Point is. In a POD the OD will still be useful since it simulates the sound of a puched tube amp. Same thing when people put it before a solid state amp, it's not the real thing but it still works since it simulates the sound of a pushed tube amp.
Effect pedals makers could hardly sell OD pedals that only pushed the signal from the guitar, what would that do to a SS amp? Raise the volume? 90% of all users woule be angry and disappointed since most people buy an OD to get distortion on a SS amp, which IMO is not right but it works, obviously.
Maybe we should have Tube OD pedals and OD simulation pedals huh?

Running the POD X3, I have one too, hasn't been very successful on my account. Still sound a bit plastic when I try to use it as a pure effects board. Must confess I had greater joy in running it into the loop as a preamp or even as a modeling amp to make my Peavey Classic sound as a ENGL Powerball.

So as far as I'm concerned
POD X3 -> PA is OK
POD X3 -> tube amp (whether it's the loop or infron) is NOT ok

I havn't tried it with a tube amp but not knowing if you have a solid state or tube I choose to reply anyway wink.gif It might work better with a SS amp since it's digital->digital

So to answer your question. If you have a tube amp I'd suggest you get a good OD pedal. I've got a Digitech Bad Monkey, I think it's the best bang for the buck. There are better OD pedals for sure but this one is just great for me.
If you've got a solid state amp I suggest you try. Like I said, OD pedals will infact simulate the sound of an overdriven tube amp so for that matter it would work. But it may work as well through the POD. I just don't know.


After reading this reply now Im not sure if my setup is even good. dry.gif

I have been strugling to get good tone. But always feel I have been battleing against some odds here. I guess its from not really knowing what to get to achieve it. I always bought stuff that looked cool.

Now that Im getting into the grit of all this guitar stuff I am really questioning my effect. MY amp I love.
Just not sure if I have the proper effects to really compliment my amp.


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