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> Where To Start - Prog Metal?
Mike Weaver
post Dec 9 2008, 03:59 AM
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I just joined and I am at a low intermediate level. I would like to build on technique to be able to play some of the dark progressive music of bands like Opeth, Katatonia, Dreamtheater, etc. Where do I start? I know I need some finger independence exercises and I have found good ones here. I also have found some good lessons in the "In the Style of" section. Any other sugestions? biggrin.gif

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Outlaw2112
post Dec 9 2008, 04:09 AM
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Pavels speed and power metal lessons... and pavels Ionic scale speedpicking exercise

but you really cant go wrong where you start

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guit...e-speedpicking/

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guit...d-metal-riffs3/

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/Speedriffing1/


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fkalich
post Dec 9 2008, 04:11 AM
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QUOTE (Mike Weaver @ Dec 8 2008, 09:59 PM) *
I just joined and I am at a low intermediate level. I would like to build on technique to be able to play some of the dark progressive music of bands like Opeth, Katatonia, Dreamtheater, etc. Where do I start? I know I need some finger independence exercises and I have found good ones here. I also have found some good lessons in the "In the Style of" section. Any other sugestions? biggrin.gif

Thanks!


start here with Juan

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guit...-solo-beginner/

then here with jerry

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/rhythm-gu...ignature-metal/

and just for kicks and thirds here with trond

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/rhythm-gu...d-style-lesson/

All three are pretty easy, compared to others.
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kjutte
post Dec 9 2008, 04:15 AM
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QUOTE (Mike Weaver @ Dec 9 2008, 03:59 AM) *
I just joined and I am at a low intermediate level. I would like to build on technique to be able to play some of the dark progressive music of bands like Opeth, Katatonia, Dreamtheater, etc. Where do I start? I know I need some finger independence exercises and I have found good ones here. I also have found some good lessons in the "In the Style of" section. Any other sugestions? biggrin.gif

Thanks!


I think the first you should work on is vibrato and phrasing, then work on technique. If you reverse it (like I did), I discovered that shredding is nothing without phrasing, and my fingers forgot all shred speed as I tried to work on my slow playing.

Anyway, I think it's important to start on stuff you can't really play, as you'll learn alot from it if you try hard enough.

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/prepar...resting-blocks/
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guit...ibrato-lesson1/

I'd try to get these down 100%, and practise a bit technique on the side.
I would advise you to stick to this at the start though.

Hope this helps!

Edit:
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/modal-madness/ - is vital
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/modal-...ic-minor-modes/ - metal scale. I'd say vital aswell, eventually.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Dec 9 2008, 04:20 AM
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fkalich
post Dec 9 2008, 04:16 AM
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QUOTE (Outlaw2112 @ Dec 8 2008, 10:09 PM) *
Pavels speed and power metal lessons... and pavels Ionic scale speedpicking exercise

but you really cant go wrong where you start

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guit...e-speedpicking/

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guit...d-metal-riffs3/

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar/Speedriffing1/


the only of those three I drill with is Ionian.

Pavel is one of my favorites in many ways, however, in terms of metal and progressive, no, there are others that I think are more natural in that direction. Actually my favorite Pavel stuff is not his speed stuff. His sound is just too harsh on those for me. I like his more lyrical stuff, where he puts in great rhythms, and quick little AP runs in the mix of things. And stuff like his Hand Control. I am not criticizing Pavel, he is one of the best here, but I just don't consider this work to be his strongest point.

EDIT: OH, definitely, definitely listen to Lian's stuff. The guy is a creative genius, in terms of making something sound fabulous, and when you dig into it, it often is not nearly as difficult as it sound like it would be. Also, Gabriel has some neat stuff, like F#Phrygian to Minor. And that is really progressive, they use Phrygian a lot. But He does not advertise as such. Look at Gabriel's stuff, he has a wealth of great material. And so do some others. The Argentina GMC crew is really good at great sounding metal stuff, progressive, generally with a neo flavor.


This post has been edited by fkalich: Dec 9 2008, 04:21 AM
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Outlaw2112
post Dec 9 2008, 04:20 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Dec 9 2008, 04:16 AM) *
the only of those three I drill with is Ionian.

Pavel is one of my favorites in many ways, however, in terms of metal and progressive, no, there are others that I think are more natural in that direction. Actually my favorite Pavel stuff is not his speed stuff. His sound is just too harsh on those for me. I like his more lyrical stuff, where he puts in great rhythms, and quick little AP runs in the mix of things. And stuff like his Hand Control. I am not criticizing Pavel, he is one of the best here, but I just don't consider this work to be his strongest point.

Depends on what you like.... the reason i joined here was to learn pavels Power-Metal speedriffing lesson... I love that stuff and the sound he has there... its a raw sound


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kjutte
post Dec 9 2008, 04:22 AM
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I think you guys should advice about vibrato also, as it is essential.
I'd check Emir, Zsolt, Piotr and lavendell for vibrato guidance.
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Outlaw2112
post Dec 9 2008, 04:26 AM
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Been here since January and still cant get it as fast as Pavel on his ionic speedpicking lesson...


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fkalich
post Dec 9 2008, 04:27 AM
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QUOTE (Outlaw2112 @ Dec 8 2008, 10:20 PM) *
Depends on what you like.... the reason i joined here was to learn pavels Power-Metal speedriffing lesson... I love that stuff and the sound he has there... its a raw sound


I understand. It depends on the person, and the state you are in, one size does not fit all. But I will say it. Sometimes Pavel just played too fast, as a lot of guys do. If they just cut it back 10% they would be great, but they just push it too far, and it really is not all that clean, and it is harsh because of that. I tend to play a lot of things at 90% of what the teacher plays it at, it just sounds better, no matter what you level is.

That does not mean the lessons are not great. I just don't feel the need to push the speed to the point where it does not sound as good anymore, which is seem like people just do, they play it about 10% faster than it should be played, to sound it's best. But 110bpm for Ionian is fine. That is not too fast. Actually I think 120bpm triplet speed (which is like 180bpm 4/4 speed) is the point where sound goes south. I play Canon Rock at 200 though, because the slower parts with 8th notes or 8th note triplets sound great that way. But I do think the 16th notes would sound better at 180bpm. But I play it at 200 anyway, because 90% of the song sound best that way.
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kjutte
post Dec 9 2008, 04:29 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Dec 9 2008, 04:27 AM) *
I understand. It depends on the person, and the state you are in, one size does not fit all. But I will say it. Sometimes Pavel just played too fast, as a lot of guys do. If they just cut it back 10% they would be great, but they just push it too far, and it really is not all that clean, and it is harsh because of that. I tend to play a lot of things at 90% of what the teacher plays it at, it just sounds better, no matter what you level is.

That does not mean the lessons are not great. I just don't feel the need to push the speed to the point where it does not sound as good anymore, which is seem like people just do, they play it about 10% faster than it should be played, to sound it's best. But 110bpm for Ionian is fine. That is not too fast. Actually I think 120bpm triplet speed (which is like 180bpm 4/4 speed) is the point where sound goes south. I play Canon Rock at 200 though, because the slower parts with 8th notes or 8th note triplets sound great that way. But I do think the 16th notes would sound better at 180bpm. But I play it at 200 anyway, because 90% of the song sound best that way.


You can't really use these guidelines, as it depends alot on drums and other factors in the song, no matter what mode it's in.
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fkalich
post Dec 9 2008, 04:31 AM
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QUOTE (Outlaw2112 @ Dec 8 2008, 10:26 PM) *
Been here since January and still cant get it as fast as Pavel on his ionic speedpicking lesson...


You want to get a swingy hand. Look at what Gilbert says about the swingy hand. That really stuck in my head. It will come. I have been working now for over 2 years.

QUOTE (kjutte @ Dec 8 2008, 10:29 PM) *
You can't really use these guidelines, as it depends alot on drums and other factors in the song, no matter what mode it's in.


well, I define the speeds as any classical person, trained as such does. I wish everybody did that, there would be less confusion.

Basically you can tremolo pick only so fast, and you really can't increase it all that much, it is genetically determined. For most people, 16th notes at 200bpm is pushing the limit of how fast they can tremolo pick, and that is really as fast as you can go, without starting to slop it out, no matter who you are (unless you come up with some economy picking tricks).
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kjutte
post Dec 9 2008, 04:33 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Dec 9 2008, 04:31 AM) *
You want to get a swingy hand. Look at what Gilbert says about the swingy hand. That really stuck in my head. It will come. I have been working now for over 2 years.



well, I define the speeds as any classical person, trained as such does. I wish everybody did that, there would be less confusion.

Basically you can tremolo pick only so fast, and you really can't increase it all that much, it is genetically determined. For most people, 16th notes at 200bpm is pushing the limit of how fast they can tremolo pick, and that is really as fast as you can go, without starting to slop it out, no matter who you are (unless you come up with some economy picking tricks).


That's rubbish. Pushing your limits will increase agility over time.
And you didn't really define speed, so I don't know what you're talking about.
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fkalich
post Dec 9 2008, 04:44 AM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Dec 8 2008, 10:33 PM) *
That's rubbish. Pushing your limits will increase agility over time.
And you didn't really define speed, so I don't know what you're talking about.


I will explain. Just tremolo pick at one spot don't move. Say 4/4 time. Start at 150bpm minute. Start increasing it. At 180 you will be picking 12 notes a second. At 200 you will be picking 13.33 notes a second. That is near my max, and near most people's max from what I have heard.

The mechanism that lets you move this past is a natural one. It is where opposing muscle sets are kept in a state of tension, and alternately relaxed. It is the same mechanism that you hear in a vocal vibrato. Generally it is about 7 cycles per second for muscles pairs. That is typical for voice. That translates to about 14 notes a second.

that limit really does not change. Just like you can't change your maximum heart rate. It is genetically determined.

That is as fast as you can play at best, without slopping it out, unless you do some sweeping tricks. Which is why everybody who plays faster than that, if you slow them down, is clearly playing very sloppy. I have never listened to anyone over that speed, who I slowed down to half speed (and I have listened to everybody) who is not playing in a sloppy manner, it just just physically impossible to do so for mortal humans, even if you cover it up with echo and backing, it is still there.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Dec 9 2008, 04:46 AM
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kjutte
post Dec 9 2008, 04:47 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Dec 9 2008, 04:44 AM) *
I will explain. Just tremolo pick at one spot don't move. Say 4/4 time. Start at 150bpm minute. Start increasing it. At 180 you will be picking 12 notes a second. At 200 you will be picking 13.33 notes a second. That is near my max, and near most people's max from what I have heard.

The mechanism that lets you move this past is a natural one. It is where opposing muscle sets are kept in a state of tension, and alternately relaxed. It is the same mechanism that you hear in a vocal vibrato. Generally it is about 7 cycles per second for muscles pairs. That is typical for voice. That translates to about 14 notes a second.

That is as fast as you can play at best, without slopping it out, unless you do some sweeping tricks. Which is why everybody who plays faster than that, if you slow them down, is clearly playing very sloppy. I have never listened to anyone over that speed, who I slowed down to half speed (and I have listened to everybody) who is not playing in a sloppy manner, it just just physically impossible to do so for mortal humans, even if you cover it up with echo and backing, it is still there.


Haha, no wonder you don't. You gotta strain your muscles to get further, exhaust them.
If what you're saying is true, it means you're going full throttle without even getting strained, and that's rubbish.

And by the way, I don't think shredding one note at one string will help you much anyway.
Movement is the key to grow stamina. In both left and right hand, on all strings and all frets.

This post has been edited by kjutte: Dec 9 2008, 04:50 AM
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fkalich
post Dec 9 2008, 04:55 AM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ Dec 8 2008, 10:47 PM) *
Haha, no wonder you don't. You gotta strain your muscles to get further, exhaust them.
If what you're saying is true, it means you're going full throttle without even getting strained, and that's rubbish.


You can do some reading on this. I think they call it the voluntary tremor. It is a physical mechanism. It has nothing to do with building strength. It is just not something you can increase the speed of significantly, and you have to use this physical mechanism to play that fast.

Just do it, see how fast you can tremolo pick. In a year check it again, it won't have increased that much, if any, no matter how much you have improved.

And really, why in the world does anyone want to play faster than 13.33 notes a second. 99.999% of the world does not care for anything that fast. You lose all dynamics. To me, I generally don't like playing faster than 12 notes a second, for the most part, and that is just when I am doing 3 note per string runs. For neo stuff, with cross pickings, pretty hard to play at such speeds. Nobody around here does. For example Marcus Etude 1 is 140. And he is pushing it there. Real hard to get near 200 with those kind of fingerings (and play clean).

This post has been edited by fkalich: Dec 9 2008, 04:57 AM
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kjutte
post Dec 9 2008, 04:58 AM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Dec 9 2008, 04:55 AM) *
You can do some reading on this. I think they call it the voluntary tremor. It is a physical mechanism. It has nothing to do with building strength. It is just not something you can increase the speed of significantly, and you have to use this physical mechanism to play that fast.

Just do it, see how fast you can tremolo pick. In a year check it again, it won't have increased that much, if any, no matter how much you have improved.

And really, why in the world does anyone want to play faster than 13.33 notes a second. 99.999% of the world does not care for anything that fast. You lose all dynamics. To me, I generally don't like playing faster than 12 notes a second, for the most part, and that is just when I am doing 3 note per string runs. For neo stuff, with cross pickings, pretty hard to play at such speeds. Nobody around here does. For example Marcus Etude 1 is 140. And he is pushing it there. Real hard to get near 200 with those kind of fingerings.


You keep talking about limitations. This blabber is meaningless to me. Post a shred, then talk about facts.
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Mike Weaver
post Dec 9 2008, 05:30 PM
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Thanks for the good debate and I will try some of the sugestions!


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ESP Eclipse II Standard - Goth Black with Gold hardware
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Mesa Boogie Ace Stiletto Head
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FrankW
post Dec 12 2008, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE (Mike Weaver @ Dec 9 2008, 03:59 AM) *
I just joined and I am at a low intermediate level. I would like to build on technique to be able to play some of the dark progressive music of bands like Opeth, Katatonia, Dreamtheater, etc. Where do I start? I know I need some finger independence exercises and I have found good ones here. I also have found some good lessons in the "In the Style of" section. Any other sugestions? biggrin.gif

Thanks!


One of the best things you can do is to analyze the music of your favorite bands. By that I mean, work on trying to play some Dream Theater, for example, by using something like a Tascam Guitar Trainer to slow down Petruccis' ridiculous playing so that you can get a handle on what he is doing.
The Guitar Trainer will slow down a song to half speed while maintaining the correct pitch. You can copy some solos and get a true insight into that part of the music. Using the trainer, or something like it, along with accurate tablature, will give you a good feel for the prog style, which usually requires some work considering its' often complex form. smile.gif

This post has been edited by FrankW: Dec 12 2008, 06:28 PM
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Mike Weaver
post Dec 13 2008, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Dec 12 2008, 10:09 AM) *
One of the best things you can do is to analyze the music of your favorite bands. By that I mean, work on trying to play some Dream Theater, for example, by using something like a Tascam Guitar Trainer to slow down Petruccis' ridiculous playing so that you can get a handle on what he is doing.
The Guitar Trainer will slow down a song to half speed while maintaining the correct pitch. You can copy some solos and get a true insight into that part of the music. Using the trainer, or something like it, along with accurate tablature, will give you a good feel for the prog style, which usually requires some work considering its' often complex form. smile.gif



Frankw - have you been using a guitar trainer? Have you had good results?

Thanks,

Mike


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Mike

Gear
Guitars
Les Paul Raw Power
ESP Eclipse II Standard - Goth Black with Gold hardware
Schecter 30th Anniversary C-1
Ovation 1861 Balladeer

Amps & Stuff
Mesa Boogie Dual Recto with 4x12 half stack
Mesa Boogie Ace Stiletto Head
Line 6 Pod Xt Live
Line 6 UX8
Digi003/Pro Tools LE Recording Studio
Focusrite OctoPre
ART Professional Tube Microphone Pre
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FrankW
post Dec 13 2008, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE (Mike Weaver @ Dec 13 2008, 03:24 AM) *
Frankw - have you been using a guitar trainer? Have you had good results?

Thanks,

Mike



http://www.tascam.com/catalogue;40,21.html

Mike,

The only reason I'm not using one is because it's not in the budget at the moment. Check out this link. I used to slow down records to figure out complicated licks. This is infinitely easier. smile.gif

Frank
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