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Fingerspasm
post Dec 19 2008, 12:48 PM
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Once again after coming up with a good riff and some solo ideas I am hitting a brick wall when it comes to putting together a drum track. Maybe I am just not being patient enough.... Was wondering if it would be possible to find out what some of the instructors or members are using to make drum tracks? What is the theory behind making a good drum track? Would it be possible to get a lesson on creating drum tracks? I am talking about heavy drums that you hear in metal and shred with double bass and plenty of break downs and cymbal crashes.


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Outlaw2112
post Dec 19 2008, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (Fingerspasm @ Dec 19 2008, 12:48 PM) *
Once again after coming up with a good riff and some solo ideas I am hitting a brick wall when it comes to putting together a drum track. Maybe I am just not being patient enough.... Was wondering if it would be possible to find out what some of the instructors or members are using to make drum tracks? What is the theory behind making a good drum track? Would it be possible to get a lesson on creating drum tracks? I am talking about heavy drums that you hear in metal and shred with double bass and plenty of break downs and cymbal crashes.

Im in the same boat... I have soo many unfinished songs that i dont know what to do with on the drums... Im very interested in the responses to this thread


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Crazyfret
post Dec 19 2008, 01:15 PM
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Good question Fingerspasm.

Its something I'd like to learn about I can put together a simple pattern but anything thats a little complex I'm stuggling.


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opeth.db
post Dec 19 2008, 01:49 PM
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This has to be one of my best purchases ever



ITs a VST where you can drag and drop pattens into your DAW. Very easy to use and a lot of diffent packs. I use the Drum kit from hell addon for it.



DKH addon


This post has been edited by opeth.db: Dec 19 2008, 01:50 PM


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Fingerspasm
post Dec 19 2008, 02:06 PM
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QUOTE (opeth.db @ Dec 19 2008, 06:49 AM) *
This has to be one of my best purchases ever



ITs a VST where you can drag and drop pattens into your DAW. Very easy to use and a lot of diffent packs. I use the Drum kit from hell addon for it.



DKH addon


I have this program and have used it in the past but I still find it hard to create my own beats. And when I try to use pre made patterns I always seem to run into the problem of having to change my riff around to fit the drum pattern instead of being able to make the drum pattern work with my riff. I can always make a simple vanilla beat. But when I try to make it a little bit more interesting it just ends in frustration. I thought there might be some theory involved or maybe some basic rules that people use when creating a good drum track.


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opeth.db
post Dec 19 2008, 02:20 PM
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Gotcha.

Unless you have a midi keyboard and are manual inputing your beats you will have those vanilla beats.

Or your a master at the piano roll in your DAW.

I tend to create my beats by grabbing a beat in the BPM you want and copy that into the DAW a few 100 times.

Once I get my rhythm track laid down I go back and start changing them up. But yea its a tough process if your not familiar. I know Trond here can make an entire score doing the opposite.

Or you can hire a drummer smile.gif




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Crazyfret
post Dec 19 2008, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (Fingerspasm @ Dec 19 2008, 01:06 PM) *
I have this program and have used it in the past but I still find it hard to create my own beats. And when I try to use pre made patterns I always seem to run into the problem of having to change my riff around to fit the drum pattern instead of being able to make the drum pattern work with my riff. I can always make a simple vanilla beat. But when I try to make it a little bit more interesting it just ends in frustration. I thought there might be some theory involved or maybe some basic rules that people use when creating a good drum track.


Is it possible to take a premade pattern and edit it to suit? I'm sure you can do that esp with EZ Drummer.

That should be the easiest way to learn how to make patterns from scratch.



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Chris Evans
post Dec 19 2008, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (opeth.db @ Dec 19 2008, 12:49 PM) *
This has to be one of my best purchases ever




me too!! that and trilogy bass module!

best way I find to do it is to have two tracks set up in your DAW, one for the main drum track and one for cymbals and drum fills.

When I write a song it usually starts with a riff, I then have a search through the grooves in DFH till I find a beat that fits nicely with my riff, whislt writing all the other parts, bass, 2nd guitar, keyboards etc I dont mess with the drum track, I pretty much use it as a metronome playing the same beat all the way through, once I`ve finished all the other parts I go back to the drum track and put in fills, breaks and cymbals where I want to emphasise certain bits in the song, just search through the fills in "all" the catorgories to find one that fits your needs, there isnt always one that fits exactly with what you want, but you can easily edit the midi file (delete or move a drum/cymbal hit) to make it fit your song, takes a little patience sometimes, but once you get used to what you can do with it it really opens up your creativity a lot more smile.gif


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superize
post Dec 19 2008, 03:07 PM
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I create my drumline i guitar pro and the i ezport the fil in midi and import the fil to fruity loops where i use ez drummer to change the midi sound....... But i also struggle when creating interesting drumlines


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opeth.db
post Dec 19 2008, 03:10 PM
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QUOTE (Smells @ Dec 19 2008, 08:26 AM) *
me too!! that and trilogy bass module!

best way I find to do it is to have two tracks set up in your DAW, one for the main drum track and one for cymbals and drum fills.

When I write a song it usually starts with a riff, I then have a search through the grooves in DFH till I find a beat that fits nicely with my riff, whislt writing all the other parts, bass, 2nd guitar, keyboards etc I dont mess with the drum track, I pretty much use it as a metronome playing the same beat all the way through, once I`ve finished all the other parts I go back to the drum track and put in fills, breaks and cymbals where I want to emphasise certain bits in the song, just search through the fills in "all" the catorgories to find one that fits your needs, there isnt always one that fits exactly with what you want, but you can easily edit the midi file (delete or move a drum/cymbal hit) to make it fit your song, takes a little patience sometimes, but once you get used to what you can do with it it really opens up your creativity a lot more smile.gif


Yea..Thats pretty much the same way I do mine but the 2 tracks for drums and cymbals is a nice touch. Didn't think of that. smile.gif



QUOTE (Crazyfret @ Dec 19 2008, 08:20 AM) *
Is it possible to take a premade pattern and edit it to suit? I'm sure you can do that esp with EZ Drummer.

That should be the easiest way to learn how to make patterns from scratch.

Yep. All the EZD patterns are midi files. Just open them up and edit away. smile.gif


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Fingerspasm
post Dec 19 2008, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (opeth.db @ Dec 19 2008, 08:10 AM) *
Yea..Thats pretty much the same way I do mine but the 2 tracks for drums and cymbals is a nice touch. Didn't think of that. smile.gif




Yep. All the EZD patterns are midi files. Just open them up and edit away. smile.gif


Some interesting stuff here. I am going to take some of these ideas and get back to work on it when I have time. I just get frustrated when I can hear the beat in my head but I cannot get it to happen in the program. I have been using Double Bass Mania II by Beta Monkey and Editing their beats buy cutting and pasting inside my DAW but it always seems to fall short that way. Its hard to get everything spot on. I should probably use a different program to edit with that will allow me get the beats in the exact location. Or maybe doing it in Midi might be easier. I think it would still be cool to see a tutorial on this. I am always amazed at what a good cymbal crash or snare hit can to to a guitar track when its in the right spot.


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Ramiro Delforte
post Dec 19 2008, 03:30 PM
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I write the drum track in Cakewalk so in that way I have the MIDI to work with samples later.
You have to listen very carefully to the drums of your favourite songs and try to write them down so later you know what fills you like. Also you can try to purchase some drummer magazines, they always have some grooves for different styles. In that way you can learn how to write them and make a good variation on them.


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Siggum
post Dec 19 2008, 03:34 PM
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Excellent advices, i very rarely use the premade beats myself, i always "play" them on my keyboard as i think it gives me a better feel and more dynamic approach to a song, offcourse this requires a bit of standard knowledge about drum patters, fills etc but its definately worth it. On the other hand you cant go wrong with some of the premade beats and fills either, as they cover most styles.


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Fran
post Dec 19 2008, 03:44 PM
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I'm reading so many posts about DAWs and programs lately that I'm beginning to get really interested!, so sorry to highjack the thread for sec, with a couple questions:

I use reaper to record. Is reaper a DAW? Can I use these VSTs (ez drummer, trilogy bass) or Line-6 plug-ins with Reaper?

If I can then fine, if not, which would be a simple affordable DAW to start using some of these programs?


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 19 2008, 03:47 PM
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Also if I may suggest, there's a lot of premade MIDI drum files on internet for free. You can try to find something that you like and rearrange it. Rearranging the files can often be a bigger job than making you own patterns, if you cannot find the appropriate track. If you don't have a MIDI controller, I advise you to drag&drop the premade files and tweak them. Tweaking the MIDI drum patterns is a skill, and it takes practice like everything else. After a while you can become really good at it, if you tweak the patterns regularly. So it is good to take some time during the day and just sit for an hour an make some drum beats. After few weeks of doing this it will become much easier and you will get around pretty quickly.

QUOTE (Fran @ Dec 19 2008, 03:44 PM) *
I'm reading so many posts about DAWs and programs lately that I'm beginning to get really interested!, so sorry to highjack the thread for sec, with a couple questions:

I use reaper to record. Is reaper a DAW? Can I use these VSTs (ez drummer, trilogy bass) or Line-6 plug-ins with Reaper?

If I can then fine, if not, which would be a simple affordable DAW to start using some of these programs?


Yes Fran mate, reaper is DAW software. You can use VST plugin technology in Reaper - it supports it.



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Fingerspasm
post Dec 19 2008, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Dec 19 2008, 08:47 AM) *
Also if I may suggest, there's a lot of premade MIDI drum files on internet for free. You can try to find something that you like and rearrange it. Rearranging the files can often be a bigger job than making you own patterns, if you cannot find the appropriate track. If you don't have a MIDI controller, I advise you to drag&drop the premade files and tweak them. Tweaking the MIDI drum patterns is a skill, and it takes practice like everything else. After a while you can become really good at it, if you tweak the patterns regularly. So it is good to take some time during the day and just sit for an hour an make some drum beats. After few weeks of doing this it will become much easier and you will get around pretty quickly.



Yes Fran mate, reaper is DAW software. You can use VST plugin technology in Reaper - it supports it.


Sounds good..... I think I will try to use my keyboard to make my drum beats. I can play a descent beat with my hands on a table top so maybe I can do it with a keyboard smile.gif
There is a function inside of most DAW's or so I was told that will allow you to get a drum beat back in time if you make it yourself with a keyboard or electronic drum set and the drumbeat goes out of time for a second or two. Has anybody heard of this function?
By the way I also use Reaper. It seems to be a great program.


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Siggum
post Dec 19 2008, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (Fingerspasm @ Dec 19 2008, 03:56 PM) *
Sounds good..... I think I will try to use my keyboard to make my drum beats. I can play a descent beat with my hands on a table top so maybe I can do it with a keyboard smile.gif
There is a function inside of most DAW's or so I was told that will allow you to get a drum beat back in time if you make it yourself with a keyboard or electronic drum set and the drumbeat goes out of time for a second or two. Has anybody heard of this function?
By the way I also use Reaper. It seems to be a great program.


If you can use your keyboard to make beats thats ideal, thats how i roll. You can get a much more original track, plus you save an insane amount of time, instead of painting each hit, i have learned over time to play everything live on keyboard, kick+snare+hi-hat and riffs and i couldnt think of a faster and more fun way to create beats for your tracks, good luck man smile.gif

Edit: Forgot to mention that if you do it like that your gonna need to quantisize your track after recording, unless you play extremely tight laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Siggum: Dec 19 2008, 04:02 PM


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Dec 19 2008, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (Fingerspasm @ Dec 19 2008, 03:56 PM) *
There is a function inside of most DAW's or so I was told that will allow you to get a drum beat back in time if you make it yourself with a keyboard or electronic drum set and the drumbeat goes out of time for a second or two. Has anybody heard of this function?


Yes, as Siggum said this function is usually called quantization. You can look it up in the help file of your DAW software to see how to activate it, just search for "Quantize MIDI"


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Fingerspasm
post Dec 19 2008, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (Siggum @ Dec 19 2008, 09:00 AM) *
If you can use your keyboard to make beats thats ideal, thats how i roll. You can get a much more original track, plus you save an insane amount of time, instead of painting each hit, i have learned over time to play everything live on keyboard, kick+snare+hi-hat and riffs and i couldnt think of a faster and more fun way to create beats for your tracks, good luck man smile.gif

Edit: Forgot to mention that if you do it like that your gonna need to quantisize your track after recording, unless you play extremely tight laugh.gif


Yes thats it! Quantisize! I could not remember. I have been meaning to start this thread for a couple of weeks. And now I am glad that I did. So much good information. I am feeling the urge to go back and try again. I spent about 3 hours last night trying to get my drum track together and finally just ended up deleting all of it in frustration. Now I think with all the advice I will go back and try using EZ Drummer with my keyboard and the Quantize function along with editing in Midi. I might not have time to do it until after Christmas. Gotta fly to California tomorrow to spend Christmas with my wifes family..... No guitar No keyboard. I am going to go crazy not being able to play for over a week!


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 19 2008, 06:38 PM
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I have EZDrums and Addictive Drums. They are both very good and full of samples.
I would usually write a riff chord progression and then search in the database of groves to find the most appropriate one for my riff. If none fit, I would edit the one thats closest to my riff by adding hits on right spots etc
Also you can search the internet for more free drum midis , but in my opinion thats a never ending story ! You can have thousands of drum midis and still not know how to use them.
So my best advice is to learn about drums. What happens with bass (kick) drum, hi hat , snare , tom toms - on which beat are these commonly used and which styles. The best practice is to transcribe drum beats of various kinds of music , and I do mean transcribe just like you transcribe guitar or any other instrument solos. You will learn a lot about drums by doing that.
Hope that helps smile.gif


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