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SonofDestiny
post Dec 23 2008, 05:14 PM
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Quite some time ago I was struggling with triplets. Now I got them down. I figured I might as well start on some harder groupings. Groups of 5, 7, 9 (11, 13? Is that possible? tongue.gif). How do I do that!?! I'm getting really pissed off at my metronome right now laugh.gif It just won't work. What's the trick?


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lcsdds
post Dec 23 2008, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Dec 23 2008, 05:14 PM) *
Quite some time ago I was struggling with triplets. Now I got them down. I figured I might as well start on some harder groupings. Groups of 5, 7, 9 (11, 13? Is that possible? tongue.gif). How do I do that!?! I'm getting really pissed off at my metronome right now laugh.gif It just won't work. What's the trick?


SonofDestiny,
I am actually going to do an SI lesson where all the licks are in groups of 5. Maybe it will help you out some. I will try and explaing it the best I can. Stay tuned biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Monte
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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 23 2008, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Dec 23 2008, 05:14 PM) *
Quite some time ago I was struggling with triplets. Now I got them down. I figured I might as well start on some harder groupings. Groups of 5, 7, 9 (11, 13? Is that possible? tongue.gif). How do I do that!?! I'm getting really pissed off at my metronome right now laugh.gif It just won't work. What's the trick?


I love that feeling man - just when you think you got it all , something new and interesting pops out and catches you of guard smile.gif

First thing I recommend is to subdivide these odd groupings. See what you can do with them !
Group of 7 , what do you want to do with it , 4 + 3 , 3+4 , 2+2+3 etc
Possibilities about that are endless!
Then you take a SEQUENCE , make up your own , use major minor scales modes pentatonics anything you can get your hands and ears on , and try to do it over regular 4/4 time signature!

This will bring another perspective in your playing and will create poly meter , which basically means 2 time signatures going on at the same time ! So rhythm section follows you with 4/4 time signature and you improvise on top with some 3/4, 5/4, 7/8 etc

Quite cool effect !

Jazz musicians love this one.

Michael Brecker, Chick Correa, Herbie Hancock - please check them out when you get a chance smile.gif

Hope that helps!

Monte sorry for my response I was writing it before you published yours !
If you want me I can edit my comment and erase it ?


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Muris Varajic
post Dec 23 2008, 05:24 PM
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Some of those groupings are very often done by accident,not always of course,
specially not in classical or jazz music
where each composer has to write everything on the sheet.

But if you're talking about some guitar solos (would like to know which tho)
then it's probably without purpose to make your counting life more horrible,
it's just that some licks come "out from hands" like that
creating odd grouping.

And if you really want to play them on purpose then
good idea is to pronounce certain words or sentences
that has equal number or parts inside as the groping you're after.
Per example, 5 = his-to-ry-of-art, 7 = are-you-go-nna-go-my-way etc.

It's pretty tricky(read impossible) to pronounce all that at high tempos
but you should be fine with slower sections. smile.gif


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SonofDestiny
post Dec 23 2008, 05:28 PM
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Hmm... I'm not completely sure if you understood my question... even though this reply opened anóther door for me biggrin.gif!! Thanks;)

I was talking about timing.. like.. how in the good lords name do I get the timing of quintiplets right?

EDIT: Muris answered it. Thank you! I can do them low-tempo now. I was talking about Eddie van Halen solos (like the one in Beat it smile.gif)

This post has been edited by SonofDestiny: Dec 23 2008, 05:31 PM


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Pedja Simovic
post Dec 23 2008, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Dec 23 2008, 05:28 PM) *
Hmm... I'm not completely sure if you understood my question... even though this reply opened anóther door for me biggrin.gif!! Thanks;)

I was talking about timing.. like.. how in the good lords name do I get the timing of quintiplets right?

EDIT: Muris answered it. Thank you! I can do them low-tempo now. I was talking about Eddie van Halen solos (like the one in Beat it smile.gif)



Aw I see what you mean now smile.gif

When you say odd groupings I get the ring in my ears polyrhythm like 3 over 4 , 5, 7 , 9 over 4 etc

Like group of 5 could be counted - UN-I-VER - SI-TY (3 + 2 eight notes smile.gif

This post has been edited by Pedja Simovic: Dec 23 2008, 05:46 PM


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Muris Varajic
post Dec 23 2008, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Dec 23 2008, 05:28 PM) *
EDIT: Muris answered it. Thank you! I can do them low-tempo now. I was talking about Eddie van Halen solos (like the one in Beat it smile.gif)


That is DEFINATELY out of purpose,
check out some live versions,try to describe
and you'll see that he plays it differently each time,
that's how those things work.

On the other hand,players like Gilbert per example
would never do that,they always know 100% what they are playing rhytmicly
but suddenly it all sounds too mechanical imo. smile.gif


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lcsdds
post Dec 23 2008, 05:56 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Dec 23 2008, 05:24 PM) *
Some of those groupings are very often done by accident,not always of course,
specially not in classical or jazz music
where each composer has to write everything on the sheet.

But if you're talking about some guitar solos (would like to know which tho)
then it's probably without purpose to make your counting life more horrible,
it's just that some licks come "out from hands" like that
creating odd grouping.

And if you really want to play them on purpose then
good idea is to pronounce certain words or sentences
that has equal number or parts inside as the groping you're after.
Per example, 5 = his-to-ry-of-art, 7 = are-you-go-nna-go-my-way etc.

It's pretty tricky(read impossible) to pronounce all that at high tempos
but you should be fine with slower sections. smile.gif


Muris,
You are way more creative than me. Here is how I count 5's in my head: one-two-three-four-five laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Like the seven's as well, kind of a Lenny Kravitz vibe laugh.gif laugh.gif
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Muris Varajic
post Dec 23 2008, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Dec 23 2008, 05:56 PM) *
Muris,
You are way more creative than me. Here is how I count 5's in my head: one-two-three-four-five laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Like the seven's as well, kind of a Lenny Kravitz vibe laugh.gif laugh.gif


You just have to keep each part equally long,
that way you'll have 5 or 7 identical durations,
then apply that to your playing.
Might be confusing but try it,it isn't. smile.gif


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SonofDestiny
post Dec 23 2008, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Dec 23 2008, 05:40 PM) *
That is DEFINATELY out of purpose,
check out some live versions,try to describe
and you'll see that he plays it differently each time,
that's how those things work.

On the other hand,players like Gilbert per example
would never do that,they always know 100% what they are playing rhytmicly
but suddenly it all sounds too mechanical imo. smile.gif


Will keep that in mind smile.gif

Point is that I want to be able to play the Beat It solo someday and a bit close to the original if possible wink.gif


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Muris Varajic
post Dec 23 2008, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Dec 23 2008, 06:03 PM) *
Will keep that in mind smile.gif

Point is that I want to be able to play the Beat It solo someday and a bit close to the original if possible wink.gif


The solution is to get the solo inside your head,
listen to it many,many times and you'll see
that you'll not think about those grouping at all (so as Eddie)
but it'll come out in the way it should,naturally. smile.gif


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SonofDestiny
post Dec 24 2008, 10:54 AM
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So do you think that the solo in You got no right by Velvet Revolver is also just out of purpose?



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Ian Bushell
post Dec 26 2008, 09:25 AM
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I have some up coming lessons that will look into odd groupings like 5's, 7's, 9's etc.

I have sequences put aside for those groupings so I do these on purpose;P ....... Only because when i was younger learning songs thought all those groupings were on purpose!

I've actually found that they're way harder to get right at a slow tempo than at a faster one.

Let's say you're looking at a group of 7 (septuplet)
First make a scale sequence as Pedja suggested, that suits the grouping and isn't going to make life even more complicated.
Once you have that the next step would be having a target note. A note that begins the group of 7. Accent this note make sure it's always on the click. Fit the remaining notes of the sequence now EVENLY between target notes. Don't try count it, feel it.
It may feel awkward at first with a slow click driving you mad! But will be well worth it:)

Hope that helps:)


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