Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Harmonic Minor Scale.
Jesse
post Jan 1 2009, 06:13 PM
Post #1


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.348
Joined: 5-July 08
From: Enschede/overijssel/Nederland
Member No.: 5.426



I really enjoy neo classical , and im interested in Yngwie and such too! In neo-clas, they use the Harmonic Minor Scale alot! So my question is. What' s the formula for the harmonic Minor Scale? E.X. For Major scale it is 2212221 .

Thanks!


--------------------
Don't just play it. Feel it!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Disturbed21
post Jan 2 2009, 02:58 AM
Post #2


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 274
Joined: 29-May 08
From: Gloucester MA.
Member No.: 5.202



QUOTE (Jesse @ Jan 1 2009, 12:13 PM) *
I really enjoy neo classical , and im interested in Yngwie and such too! In neo-clas, they use the Harmonic Minor Scale alot! So my question is. What' s the formula for the harmonic Minor Scale? E.X. For Major scale it is 2212221 .

Thanks!


I'm pretty sure it's 2122131


--------------------
Enter The Doom And Gloom If You Dare Below This Message

http://www.last.fm/user/Disturbed21

and add if you want...

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rated Htr
post Jan 2 2009, 04:35 AM
Post #3


Experienced Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.111
Joined: 15-October 07
From: Leiria, Portugal
Member No.: 3.056



https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...?showtopic=8244


--------------------
Currently Practicing

Rhythm: Finnish Power Metal III: Nightwish
Legato: Ben's Land Of Legato
Alternate Picking: Alternate Picking Workout #5
Chords: Chord Melody Technique

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Jan 2 2009, 10:46 AM
Post #4


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



Interesting , you guys are using half steps as formula - haven't seen that in a while !

Try like this : 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 (8)
These are all the notes in the scale related to Root of the scale.

1 = Root
2 = Major 2nd
b3= Minor 3rd
4= Perfect 4th
5= Perfect 5th
b6= Minor 6th
7 = Major 7th
8= Octave

That should help you for future scales and interval study wink.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Emir Hot
post Jan 2 2009, 11:00 AM
Post #5


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 7.201
Joined: 14-July 08
From: London UK
Member No.: 5.490



This is a great scale. Its 5th mode is called Phrygian Dominant - no neoclassical solo without this one smile.gif I also use its 4th mode a lot, it is called Dorian #4. Somebody calls it Hungarian Minor and it sounds very eastern.


--------------------
Check out my <a href="https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/instructor/Emir-Hot" target="_blank">Instructor profile</a>

www.emirhot.com
www.myspace.com/emirhotguitar
www.myspace.com/sevdahmetal
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wrk
post Jan 2 2009, 04:20 PM
Post #6


Learning Tone Seeker
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.027
Joined: 19-June 06
From: Paris/France (..used to be german)
Member No.: 723



QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jan 2 2009, 11:00 AM) *
This is a great scale. Its 5th mode is called Phrygian Dominant - no neoclassical solo without this one smile.gif I also use its 4th mode a lot, it is called Dorian #4. Somebody calls it Hungarian Minor and it sounds very eastern.


Hi Emir,

I do a lot of "paperwork" lately to understand the different modes of major and minor scales and there differences and i wanted to check back if i understood this above right.

Based on the A harmonic minor scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G# (raised 7 of natural minor)

The 5th mode: E, F, G#, A, B, C, D is called Phrygian Dominant, because it is similar to Phrygian mode (r, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7) but has a raised 3rd (major 3rd) instead of minor 3rd.

The 4th mode : D, E, F, G#, A, B, C is similar to dorian mode (r, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) but has a raised 4th instead of a perfect 4th.

Is this more or less correct?




--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fsgdjv
post Jan 5 2009, 12:33 PM
Post #7


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.255
Joined: 12-April 07
Member No.: 1.545



QUOTE (wrk @ Jan 2 2009, 04:20 PM) *
Hi Emir,

I do a lot of "paperwork" lately to understand the different modes of major and minor scales and there differences and i wanted to check back if i understood this above right.

Based on the A harmonic minor scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G# (raised 7 of natural minor)

The 5th mode: E, F, G#, A, B, C, D is called Phrygian Dominant, because it is similar to Phrygian mode (r, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7) but has a raised 3rd (major 3rd) instead of minor 3rd.

The 4th mode : D, E, F, G#, A, B, C is similar to dorian mode (r, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) but has a raised 4th instead of a perfect 4th.

Is this more or less correct?


I'm not emir, but that is most definetly correct.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Jan 5 2009, 12:39 PM
Post #8


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



Great observation Andy, you are on the right track there wink.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
berko
post Jan 5 2009, 12:54 PM
Post #9


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.771
Joined: 2-April 08
From: Budapest, Hungary
Member No.: 4.782



QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jan 2 2009, 10:46 AM) *
Interesting , you guys are using half steps as formula - haven't seen that in a while !


Well, Andrew uses this approach a lot on his theory board - but as 1st approach I think it's quite useful smile.gif

However I got confused a bit by the hungarian minor mode:

- according to Emir it's the same as the Dorian #4 (4th mode of the basic harmonic minor), just given a different name

- in Ramiro's exotic scale list the exact same name (Hungarian minor) is applied to this scale: C D Eb F# G Ab B (which has 2 other different notes modified)

- in my Hungarian language theory book it's defined as a harmonic minor with a raised 4th (#4)

So the Dorian #4 has a raised 4th but thats the raised seven of the basic harmonic minor. According to the hungarian theory book: other than the raised seven the Hungarian minor has a raised 4th (again). If we are looking at the A harmonic minor this 4th note in Ramiro's chart would be the D# (enharmonic of Eb), but Ramiro has an extra F# too (so his scale is like a melodic minor with an extra raised 4th).

Am I correct when thinking this way? Or is this just another name-confusion when we use different names for different scales according to different approaches (Ramiro did mention this chaotic naming system in his new scale lesson...)
So is it correct to name this scale that way and vice versa?

At this particular example the issue is about the raised 4th. So according to this, the simple Dorian with a raised 4th as well as the harmonic and the melodic minors with a raised 4th can be considered as Hungarian minors...

This post has been edited by berko: Jan 5 2009, 12:57 PM


--------------------
High speed, low drag


Check out my YouTube channel
HERE!


Here you can find my
MYSPACE
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wrk
post Jan 5 2009, 01:24 PM
Post #10


Learning Tone Seeker
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.027
Joined: 19-June 06
From: Paris/France (..used to be german)
Member No.: 723



Thanks Fsgdjv and Pedja ... good to get confirmation sometimes.


@ berko : hm true, thats confusing. I guess that the name "Hungarian minor" is maybe not that clearly defined, but if i get this right, they have in common a raised 4th on a minor scale, means, the step between the minor 3rd and the augmented 4th has 3 half-tone steps, what creates of course a specific sound. Interesting point .. maybe a pro can explain this better smile.gif






--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Jan 5 2009, 01:26 PM
Post #11


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



@Berko

Hungarian minor is not the same scale as Dorian #4. Dorian #4 is 4th mode of Harmonic minor scale and it has following formula 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7 8
Hungarian minor is like you mentioned and Ramiro said, Harmonic minor scale with raised 4th scale degree.
Its important to mention that Hungarian minor is scale on its own and fits in the exotic type scales (standard scales are major, natural harmonic and melodic minor - everything else is exotic smile.gif
So for Hungarian minor you get now 1 2 b3 #4 5 b6 7 8 !

Lots of cool half steps in Hungarian minor, very gypsy sounding scale and beautiful to use when least expected smile.gif

Hope that works out for you Berko smile.gif


Edit : Hungarian minor is also known as Gypsy minor smile.gif

This post has been edited by Pedja Simovic: Jan 5 2009, 01:32 PM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
berko
post Jan 5 2009, 02:04 PM
Post #12


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.771
Joined: 2-April 08
From: Budapest, Hungary
Member No.: 4.782



Thanks Pedja. So it's not the raised 4th issue then. And the Hungarian/Gypsy scale is considered to be "exotic" and a separate scale. (IMO the Gypsy scale could be a more appropriate name because Hungarian folk music is one the purest pentatonic stuff ever. More likely the Gypsy immigration brought this oriental feel with itself from the east).

Still, Ramiro's version is different (found in the exotic scale list on his board and also in his 101 exotic scale lesson 6th video where hungarian/gypsy is mentioned as the 4th relative mode of the neapolitan minor scale). I checked it again. I said in the previous post that it's like a melodic minor type of minor with a raised 4th. It's not, according to Ramiro it's an Aeolian (natural minor) mode with a raised 4th...

So even though I've known this scale as separate (and you also said this and I'll believe you), maybe a this Hungarian/gypsy kind of feel to a scale can be considered as more general. As wrk said, the minor 3rd and augmented 4th bares a 3 semitone gap which emphasizes the main characteristic of the scale. (Actually it completely alters even the natural minor scale 2122122 to 2131122 if counting semitones).

So I'm not saying that either your or Ramiro (or Ramiro's theory book) are wrong, but we are not talking about the same scale.

Should I stay with the classical term that Hun. minor is a harmonic minor with a raised 4th - and then when it is said to be natural minor (or even a melodic) minor with a raised 4th then that's just because the raised 4th is important? In Ramiros video lesson the 4th mode of the Neapolitan minor still bares the Hungarian minor feel but there the harmonic minor does not fit, but it doesn't seem to be important either...

thanks in advance


--------------------
High speed, low drag


Check out my YouTube channel
HERE!


Here you can find my
MYSPACE
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Jan 5 2009, 02:08 PM
Post #13


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



@Berko

Lots of information smile.gif
As I suggested harmonic minor with raised 4th is gypsy minor.

Let me do some research , I might even scan some pages from books and notes I have from Berklee and upload them here - that could be very useful I hope smile.gif

For now Dorian #4 is 4th mode of Harmonic minor.
Gypsy minor is scale by itself and its harmonic minor with raised 4th scale degree smile.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
berko
post Jan 5 2009, 02:13 PM
Post #14


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.771
Joined: 2-April 08
From: Budapest, Hungary
Member No.: 4.782



QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jan 5 2009, 02:08 PM) *
@Berko

Lots of information smile.gif
As I suggested harmonic minor with raised 4th is gypsy minor.

Let me do some research , I might even scan some pages from books and notes I have from Berklee and upload them here - that could be very useful I hope smile.gif

For now Dorian #4 is 4th mode of Harmonic minor.
Gypsy minor is scale by itself and its harmonic minor with raised 4th scale degree smile.gif


So far so good! Thanks Pedja, you're my man!

Lots of names and approaches towards scales, I think I'm driving it over a bit. For me these exotic scales are pure abstractions yet, it helps me to understand the standard ones better. I'm not planning to improvise in a neapolitan major in the near future laugh.gif laugh.gif ... although it wouldn't do any harm as far as I know...

cheers smile.gif


--------------------
High speed, low drag


Check out my YouTube channel
HERE!


Here you can find my
MYSPACE
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Emir Hot
post Jan 5 2009, 02:16 PM
Post #15


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 7.201
Joined: 14-July 08
From: London UK
Member No.: 5.490



Sorry guys I lost this topic on my "new posts" list. Pedja explained it well. A little tip about Dorian and Minor scale would help. Every time you hear "Dorian" you should know that there is natural 6th *Dorian strongest note". Dorian is also a minor scale because it has minor 3rd but if you say Dorian it must have natural 6th while natural or harmonic minor scales have b6 in the formula.


--------------------
Check out my <a href="https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/instructor/Emir-Hot" target="_blank">Instructor profile</a>

www.emirhot.com
www.myspace.com/emirhotguitar
www.myspace.com/sevdahmetal
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ramiro Delforte
post Jan 5 2009, 05:46 PM
Post #16


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 2.279
Joined: 4-August 08
From: Argentina, Buenos Aires
Member No.: 5.625



Here's a Wiki entry about the scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_minor_scale.
It has the same notes that I took from the Befumo book.
Here's the Mathias Eklundh site and it has the same notes http://www.freakguitar.com/hungarianmin.html.
And in this link http://jguitar.com/scale/C/Hungarian%20Gypsy they named as Pedja said but the notes are the same.


--------------------
Check out my Instructor Profile and Board

LIVE VIDEO CHATS EVERY MONDAY AROUND 22PM (GMC HOUR)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
IDontWantMyUsern...
post Jan 5 2009, 06:00 PM
Post #17


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 405
Joined: 22-June 07
From: Mosjøen, Norway
Member No.: 2.170



Will for example harmonic minor with an augmented fourth also have the possibility of being named Harmonic Minor #4?
Just want to see if I got everything right tongue.gif




This post has been edited by IDontWantMyUsername: Jan 5 2009, 06:03 PM


--------------------
My stuff:

Ibanez S320
Marshall MG100HDFX half stack
Line6 PODxt
Digidesign Mbox Pro

Songs I'm writing down/learning at the moment:

Children of Bodom - Downfall

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Jan 5 2009, 06:12 PM
Post #18


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



QUOTE (IDontWantMyUsername @ Jan 5 2009, 06:00 PM) *
Will for example harmonic minor with an augmented fourth also have the possibility of being named Harmonic Minor #4?
Just want to see if I got everything right tongue.gif


Yes !
You can call it Gypsy Minor , Harmonic minor #4 or Harmonic minor with augmented 4th !

Either of these works and end up being the same thing smile.gif

QUOTE (Ramiro Delforte @ Jan 5 2009, 05:46 PM) *
Here's a Wiki entry about the scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_minor_scale.
It has the same notes that I took from the Befumo book.
Here's the Mathias Eklundh site and it has the same notes http://www.freakguitar.com/hungarianmin.html.
And in this link http://jguitar.com/scale/C/Hungarian%20Gypsy they named as Pedja said but the notes are the same.



Awesome links Ramiro !
I was about to post Wiki entry and another website.

This pretty much clears all the clouds around the scales.

Hungarian minor = Gypsy minor = Harmonic minor #4 = Harmonic minor with augmented 4th !

Hope I didn't leave any term out biggrin.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Fast ReplyReply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 22nd July 2017 - 03:41 AM