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> Fatb0t Mtp Thread - Sonofdestiny Mentoree, Lets get rollin'
fatb0t
post Jan 8 2009, 05:10 PM
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Hello SonOfDestiny my friend! Is your name George?

My name is Jonathan first off, I sent you a PM of my MSN user name so we can chat too smile.gif

I hope you're ready to begin your rigorous study of guitar. A few points before we begin...

Just like with anything in life, you get out what you put in. The pleasure you receive from playing the guitar is a direct function of how much time/energy is spent honing your skills, learning new techniques, and practicing composing.

I am here in hopes to show you some direction in your playing. You sent me a PM when I uploaded my MTP entry and you said you liked the way I played (I was very flattered by the way). Though Smells has given us a basic out line, one thing that I cannot possible stress enough to you is learning some theory. If you want to be able improvise coherently this is a must. This is where I go back to my point of you get out what you put in. Though reading theory might not be the most fun of things, guitar playing or music in general has an intellectual aspect of it that absolutely must be learned.

What experience with music theory do you have? Do you know your major scale? Do you know the relation of the major scale and the pentatonic scale? Do you know how to build chords from stacking thirds? Do you know how to fret a major, minor, and diminished chord? Do you know how to fret M/m/Dim-7th chords? Do you know the difference between a whole note, half note, quarter note, 8th note, 16th note?

If not, have no fear! I can help you, as well as the experienced theory fiends around here. Just let me know where you are at with that.

I watched your video and listened to your solos, over all you have pretty good technique! We just need to polish it up a bit and teach you how to make rocking solos just like Richie Sambora (or get close enough smile.gif)

Do you know how to use a metronome?



So let me know where you are at with the theory side of things and I will come up with some lessons for you.

-Jonathan

This post has been edited by fatb0t: Jan 8 2009, 06:51 PM
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SonofDestiny
post Jan 8 2009, 06:17 PM
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Hey Jonathan!

My experience with music theory is bad. I kind of know the patterns in the included file, but that's all really.

I also know the easiest pentatonic pattern 1-4 1-3 1-3 1-3 1-4 1-4.

Relation of those scales... I know that you have to remove to notes from the diatonic scale, but which ones... good question.

Building a chord from stacking thirds... I think I can do that.

How to fret those chords? Hmm I guess it kind of depends on what you want me to play. I know that major is 1 3 5, minor is 1 3b 5 and dim is 1 3b 5b (right???). I'm probably able to fret them, but not by heart wink.gif Same goes for 'M/m/Dim/7th chords'.

And yes, I know the differences between the durations of the notes and I know how to use a metronome smile.gif

I think it's a good idea to start off tackling this problem first. I'm excited to start this. Let's do it biggrin.gif
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Attached File  Fmin_modes.gp5 ( 3.72K ) Number of downloads: 82
 


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fatb0t
post Jan 8 2009, 07:39 PM
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Part I:

Ok George,

Your major minor and diminished formulas were correct, good job. We will get more into triads and more complex chords later, I just wanted to see where you were at.

We have a lot of things to cover, but with persistence, dedication, and practice we can achieve your goals of playing like Slash and company.

First and foremost - you need to learn the minor pentatonic in every position in every key.
Do you understand that the A minor pentatonic is the same shapes as D minor pentatonic just moved down five frets?

Lets have a visual to understand a bit better.





Ok, so what do we see here? We see the pentatonic box position you know. We also see that the box position can move up and down the fret board without changing shape. So if you want to play A Minor pentatonic play on the fifth fret this box position. If you want to play D minor pentatonic move to the tenth fret and play your box....

Now, the pentatonic is made up of five notes. Penta means five. So since there is 5 notes, there are five corresponding chords, and five different positions you can solo in.
What does this mean?! It means you can play up and down the neck. It's the same 5 notes in different positions and different octaves.

Let me show you what I mean.



Here we have A minor pentatonic, you need to learn this scale in every position up and down the neck. You can see that besides that one familiar box you know, there are 4 more! On the low E string on the 3rd fret starting on a G you see a box, on the 5th fret (A) you see your familiar box, on your 8th fret © you have a box, on your 10 fret (D) you have another box, and finally on your 12th fret (E) you have your final box position.

You need to be able to play these 5 positions as soon as possible.

THEORY SUPPLEMENT: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=5023

Read this, and ask me any questions you may have. I find I need to read these pieces three or four times before I fully understand and mentally digest everything in the article. Keep this in mind my friend.

OK, now you must be asking - when am I going to play guitar?!

Good question - First, the first thing I ask of you is to record a video of yourself playing all five positions of the A Minor pentatonic scale preferably with an audible metronome.

Start from the root note of A on the low E string, and go up and down the scale. Refer to Andrews lessons as well. Once you complete this task and you know the pentatonic well, it will give you a nice little road map, a point of reference for all other things.

Let me know how you make do dude!

1/18/09:

Things needed to be completed:
  • A Minor pentatonic video illustrating you playing all five box positions (Don't worry about speed, accuracy is the most important) COMPLETED
  • Read and understand Andrews pentatonic theory lesson COMPLETED
  • Timing & rhythm (Part 1) -Chords to a backing track COMPLETED

    Beginner- Strumming and Arpeggios

    Goal - To play the whole lesson.

    Purpose - practice timing and sense of rhythm. If this lesson gives problems - it will be a useful discovery. Dealing with the problem will help progress to the next level.

    instructions - A Video showing progress should be provided playing with the backing provided (slower backings can of course be used)


Good luck my friend, the Timing and rhythm exercise should be a breeze for you judging by your videos and recorded solos. Since dedication is the key here, try to bang this lesson out as fast as possible. I have other rhythm and timing lessons which I believe are better suited for your level.

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SonofDestiny
post Jan 9 2009, 09:08 AM
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I will get to the timing exercise now smile.gif Any chance I can get the backing for that?

Oh and another quick question. I always have problems with this, but how do I time that very first chord right? I'm so bad at timing when there's a drum fill. In the lesson it's like Muris hits the chord in between two beats. I'm confused tongue.gif

This post has been edited by SonofDestiny: Jan 9 2009, 09:15 AM


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fatb0t
post Jan 9 2009, 03:24 PM
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Ok, you need a backing for practicing your A minor pentatonic scale or you need the backing for the strumming lesson?

If it's for the Strumming lesson go to: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/rhythm-gu...-and-arpeggios/ and hit 'Backing tracks' - select the appropriate BMP.

As far as timing the first chord, when you're listening to this lesson you will hear three ticks then a drum fill... When the lesson starts count: 1, 2, 3, 4 with the ticks then prepare yourself begin to play. I suggest you look at the fretboard and prepare your fingers for the first chord. You can count in your head or tap your foot. Ever see a band live? There is usually one person in the band that says really loud ONE TWO THREE FOUR then everyone starts playing. This is the same concept here.

Sometimes if I can't get the timing right I will play nothing at all... I will close my eyes and really really REALLY listen to what I'm hearing. I don't worry about how to play it, I just absorb the song into my head as best as possible. This really helps me get the timing and rhythm of the song. Once I try to play the song again after hearing it, processing it and mentally digesting it - things are a lot easier.

I'm at work now so I can't record myself counting off the track, but if you have any problems let me and when I'm home I'll give you a audio sample!

Let me know how it goes dude, keep me posted smile.gif Good luck!

-Jonathan
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SonofDestiny
post Jan 9 2009, 04:53 PM
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I was talking about a downloadable backing wink.gif

So you mean I should keep counting in my head? Forget about the drumfill and hear 'four'?


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fatb0t
post Jan 9 2009, 05:29 PM
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1, 2, 3, drum fill = 4 - they take up the same amount of time.

Listen to the music, you've heard that fill ten million times whether you realize it or not... Watch Muris play it, listen to Muris play it, internalize the song, try to slow down and relax. Could you record yourself playing the song so I can hear where you are at so far?

I requested the backing from Muris: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=23290

Update: George, I PMed you the backing.

Thank you Muris for supplying it for us.

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SonofDestiny
post Jan 10 2009, 03:32 PM
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Dude, I feel so stupid. This should have been perfect the first take, but it still isn't! I hate it when I have to slow down while doing arpeggios. sad.gif

Oh and about the pentatonic scale. I added a bit of a noodle at the end. I hope you don't mind smile.gif

This post has been edited by SonofDestiny: Jan 10 2009, 03:39 PM
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Attached File  untitled.mp3 ( 878.79K ) Number of downloads: 131
Attached File  pentatonic_scale.mp3 ( 976.53K ) Number of downloads: 146
 


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fatb0t
post Jan 10 2009, 06:20 PM
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Ok, I sent you the strumming backing track via email - you should recieve it shortly. The reason I want you to record with that is to see if you fixed your timing issue with the drum roll. When you record again, like I told you before - relax - don't worry about the record button, don't worry how many takes it requires, loosen up your shoulders, loosen up your strumming arm, loosen up your wrist, relaxing is key to making a real convincing take. It might seem silly at first but I can assure you it works.

Secondly, the pentatonic scales sounded pretty good - great job man. Now the real question, do you feel comfortable with all five boxes? Can you effortlessly move between boxes? Interconnect licks?

Also, how did the reading of Andrews lesson go? Did you have any questions, did you know most of it, was it enlightening?

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SonofDestiny
post Jan 10 2009, 06:49 PM
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Am I comfortable with the boxes? Not really, I will have to be doing that for another couple of days (well I think it's going to take me weeks before it's perfect, but a couple of days should be enough for proper control).

How did the reading go? Allright, I suppose. I don't really think I can apply it to shred the neck in every possible pentatonic scale though! I think I knew most of it already smile.gif

Man, recording that strumming exercise was so annoying. I always strum and pluck fast and energetic, so I really had to come down from that speed and it was hard to control myself. You will hear that in a couple of measures.


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Attached File  timingexercise1.mp3 ( 902.01K ) Number of downloads: 163
 


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fatb0t
post Jan 10 2009, 07:54 PM
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Good job George - you definitely have the point of the exercise down.
I'm glad you understand most of the theory lesson, it's not intended to teach you how to shred, rather it's purpose is to create a road map around the fretboard in your mind.
You have your home base right now, the minor pentatonic in it's root position, and probably the accompanying box as well. We just have to build on this idea and create a larger map in your head smile.gif

Ok, since we need to continue to cover material this week - I want to stick to rhythm. When I started playing I made one very serious error... I only practiced soloing. I ended up a very unbalanced guitar player - I would jam with people and all I could do was solo! Balance is the key with guitar, you need to be versitile, be able to cover many different genres with your rhythm playing and still be able to pump out expressive and effective solos.

If you even look on GMC, most of the material is oriented for solos. As I've learned in my travels of playing guitar - a solo is pretty meaningless in most cases without rhythm guitar. 90% of the song is rhythm guitar playing, 10% is solos. Why spend 90% of practice sessions on something that you only use for 10% of a song? Well, because it's fun - but that's besides the point - we need to get you a very solid foundation with rhythm.

(This is a very simplified explanation, practicing solos is very important as well because it teaches you how to add embellishments and vary your rhythm playing - we will get to that later on)

Theory supplement: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...?showtopic=3630


To be completed:

First ryhthm exercise: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/rhythm-guitar-workout/
This is good for strumming - let me know how you make out. I PMed Dejan to get the backing track for you to record onto as well wink.gif COMPLETED


Read and understand how to build chords from scales COMPLETED

Second rhythm exercise: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/rhythm-gu...c-rock-cliches/ COMPLETED

This is a good lesson because it blends rhythm and solos - all using the pentatonic scale

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fatb0t
post Jan 11 2009, 02:31 AM
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The backing should be in your inbox, good luck.
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SonofDestiny
post Jan 11 2009, 12:07 PM
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Thanks man! smile.gif

I really enjoy the way you structure this.

When is the deadline?


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fatb0t
post Jan 11 2009, 07:33 PM
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Well since you did did you first assignments already - you should be finished up by the 15th. The main objective was those first lessons you already completed. Try to do these, once you finish up these rhythm exercises we're going to work on some funk strumming and metal riffing. We need a very solid foundation in rhythm before we can move further. Try to learn these lessons, on Gabriels lesson don't worry about that solo so much. If you can do it, great - but if it's difficult don't worry about it.
Also, if you could provide videos of you playing that would help a lot...I need to see your technique, how your holding the guitar, how your fingering chords, ect...

How did your theory reading go? Do you have any questions? Do you understand how to build chords from the major scale now? You won't absorb all of it right away - you will need to read and reread many times.
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SonofDestiny
post Jan 11 2009, 07:37 PM
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I understood it all man smile.gif But is it even possible to have this stuff in you like vocabulary? I mean, isn't it always going to be like you have to write your stuff down or will I be able to do it in my head someday?

Oh and next time there will be a video of me playing! You will have a lot of work with me from that point I'm afraid tongue.gif I handle the guitar pretty .... bad, I suppose haha.

EDIT: that Gabriel lesson... with or without backing? I don't think it will be a problem by the way smile.gif

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fatb0t
post Jan 12 2009, 02:24 PM
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QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jan 11 2009, 01:37 PM) *
I understood it all man smile.gif But is it even possible to have this stuff in you like vocabulary? I mean, isn't it always going to be like you have to write your stuff down or will I be able to do it in my head someday?

Oh and next time there will be a video of me playing! You will have a lot of work with me from that point I'm afraid tongue.gif I handle the guitar pretty .... bad, I suppose haha.

EDIT: that Gabriel lesson... with or without backing? I don't think it will be a problem by the way smile.gif


The Gabriel lesson you can just record yourself playing with the backing... have the lesson playing in the background and record yourself playing with it. Do you have a microphone? If you want I can try to request that backing from Gab - then you can just record yourself cleanly and clearly. However, that lesson is pretty old - he may not have it.

Well, having this knowledge is useful for composing. Eventually you will know 90% of this by heart - I must admit, I write this stuff down at all the time. I only started to learn theory once I joined GMC, that was only a little over a year ago. I must say I retain quite a lot of the theory lessons though and you will too. My advise to you is to learn as much theory as possible!

Please post a video of your playing - It will help me critique your playing smile.gif

QUIZ TIME!
  1. What are the seven chords for Bb Major scale (Ionian mode)?
  2. What are the seven chords for the G minor scale (Aeolian mode)?
  3. Is there any special relationship between these two scales that you can discern?
  4. What interval of the 'Blues scale' is considered the 'blue note'?
  5. Please give me a progression in which the E minor pentatonic scale would sound appropriate.
  6. Please take your backing from: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&id=12397 and record a simple, slow, melodic solo.
    Hint: Have an introduction, body, and conclusion. Think of soloing as approaching someone. First you say 'Hello' - then you express whatever it is you need to express, then you say 'Goodbye'. Take your backing, listen to it - think about what emotion you want to convey in the solo - sadness, excitement, confusion, whatever - then make it happen.

    The reason I ask for this is two fold; First I want to see where you are at as far as bending, legato, alternate picking, and phrasing - secondly - it should be fun... Since you've learned a few more pentatonic boxes you should have an extended view of the fret board. On week three when we move to solo-ing this sample will give me good insight into what we need to work on. wink.gif George - don't go crazy with this, just record one or two takes and upload your favorite.

COMPLETED


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SonofDestiny
post Jan 12 2009, 10:26 PM
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# What are the seven chords for Bb Major scale (Ionian mode)?

Notes Bb Major: Bb - C - D - Eb - F - G - A

General rule = I, IIm7, IIIm7, IVmaj7, V7, VIm, VIIdim

Seven chords for Bb Major: Bb, Cm7, Dm7, Ebmaj7, F7, Gm, Adim

When I was trying to get the notes of the scale I kind of did it with the help of my guitar. Playing the major scale from Bb on the e-string 3nps ... is that allright? Or should I do it with the 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 formula?

# What are the seven chords for the G minor scale (Aeolian mode)?


G - A - A# - C - D - E - F#

General rule minor: Im, IIdim, III, IVm7, Vm7, VImaj7, VII7 (you start on the sixth chord of the major scale, because aeolian is the 6th mode)

Gm - Adim - A# - Cm7 - Dm7 - Emaj7 - F#7

# Is there any special relationship between these two scales that you can discern?


Uhmm... I think I've kind of already explained that in the previous question. Aeolian is the '6th' mode. It has a lowered third compared to the major scale.

# What interval of the 'Blues scale' is considered the 'blue note'?

Flattened fifth biggrin.gif

# Please give me a progression in which the E minor pentatonic scale would sound appropriate.

E-B-D ? Not sure.

# Please take your backing from: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&id=12397 and record a simple, slow, melodic solo.
Hint: Have an introduction, body, and conclusion. Think of soloing as approaching someone. First you say 'Hello' - then you express whatever it is you need to express, then you say 'Goodbye'. Take your backing, listen to it - think about what emotion you want to convey in the solo - sadness, excitement, confusion, whatever - then make it happen.


Uploads tomorrow smile.gif

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fatb0t
post Jan 13 2009, 12:08 AM
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QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jan 12 2009, 04:26 PM) *
# What are the seven chords for Bb Major scale (Ionian mode)?

Notes Bb Major: Bb - C - D - Eb - F - G - A

General rule = I, IIm7, IIIm7, IVmaj7, V7, VIm, VIIdim

Seven chords for Bb Major: Bb, Cm7, Dm7, Ebmaj7, F7, Gm, Adim


Correct

QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jan 12 2009, 04:26 PM) *
# What are the seven chords for the G minor scale (Aeolian mode)?[/b]

G - A - A# - C - D - E - F#

General rule minor: Im, IIdim, III, IVm7, Vm7, VImaj7, VII7 (you start on the sixth chord of the major scale, because aeolian is the 6th mode)

Gm - Adim - A# - Cm7 - Dm7 - Emaj7 - F#7


This is incorrect. The correct notes are the same as the Bb major scale just starting from G: G A Bb C D Eb F

Gm7, Adim, BbMaj7, Cm7, Dm7, EbMaj7, F7

QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jan 12 2009, 04:26 PM) *

# Is there any special relationship between these two scales that you can discern?


Uhmm... I think I've kind of already explained that in the previous question. Aeolian is the '6th' mode. It has a lowered third compared to the major scale.


It is true that the Aeolian mode is the sixth mode of the major scale. It does have flattened third compared to the major scale, however it also has flattened 6th and 7th. What I'm trying to impress upon you is that the G minor scale is derived from the Bb Major scale. So when you're playing G minor or G minor pentatonic you're playing within the Bb major scale.

This is the circle of fifths:
Notice where it says Bb inside that circle you'll see Gminor.

So G minor is referred to as the relative minor of Bb major. Though these two scales have two different formulas they result in the same notes. The only difference is where you start from.
If you start on the Bb you get the Ionian mode,
If you start on the C you get C Dorian,
If you start on D you get D Phrygian,
If you start on Eb you get Eb Lydian,
If you start on F you get F Mixolydian,
If you start on G you get G Aeolian,
and if you start on A you get A Locrian.


Here's an example for C Major (C Ionian):


QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jan 12 2009, 04:26 PM) *
# What interval of the 'Blues scale' is considered the 'blue note'?

Flattened fifth biggrin.gif

Good job! This is sometimes known as the "Devils' Interval" - It's widely used in blues music as well. You can use it chromatically, or you can land on it for a dissonant feeling. David did a really good lesson on the Blue note: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guit...ues-note-focus/
Check it out when you got some time wink.gif

QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jan 12 2009, 04:26 PM) *
# Please give me a progression in which the E minor pentatonic scale would sound appropriate.

E-B-D ? Not sure.


Lets analyze this: The chords E B D

I can only assume since you just said E, B, D - you meant E Major. Minors would be written out like Em ect...

EMaj = E G# B
BMaj = B D# F#
DMaj = D F# A

So we have the notes: E F# G# A B D D#

The E Minor pentatonic notes are: E G A B D

We can see right away we're going to have trouble with the G# in the E Maj chord and the D# in the B Maj chord. Now this is strictly from a theory stand point - in blues - we mix major and minors all the time... But what I'm trying to make you understand is how to figure out what scale goes with what chords.

What we did here was take chords, break them down to their individual notes, and figured out whether or not they fit in a given scale.

So if we were to use say, E Major (E Ionian) which is E F# G# A B C# D#

E Maj, B Maj, D#dim would sound fine (Why is this D#dim instead of DMaj? Because D doesn't exist in the E major scale)


Ok so what chords would go good with the E minor pentatonic?

The E Minor pentatonic notes are: E G A B D

Emin =E G B
G Maj = G B D
A min = A C E

Wait where does that C come from in that A Minor chord? How does that go with the pentatonic scale? Since we know Emin is the relative minor of G Maj and we know G Maj has the notes: G A B C D E F# - we see our C is in there and we're good to go.



QUOTE (SonofDestiny @ Jan 12 2009, 04:26 PM) *
# Please take your backing from: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&id=12397 and record a simple, slow, melodic solo.
Hint: Have an introduction, body, and conclusion. Think of soloing as approaching someone. First you say 'Hello' - then you express whatever it is you need to express, then you say 'Goodbye'. Take your backing, listen to it - think about what emotion you want to convey in the solo - sadness, excitement, confusion, whatever - then make it happen.


Uploads tomorrow smile.gif


Can't wait!

Over all good job dude, this theory stuff is very difficult - it takes a while to come to grasps with. I am still learning as well. I've asked an instructor to review my post to make sure I haven't mislead you anywhere!


Theory Supplement: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...?showtopic=5012 - Modes 101

This post has been edited by fatb0t: Jan 13 2009, 12:25 AM
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SonofDestiny
post Jan 13 2009, 08:31 AM
Post #19


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Ahh... it shouldn't be difficult man! tongue.gif I can't believe I did that stuff wrong. Guess I will have to put more time into this smile.gif

A quiz like this is really, really helpful by the way. I can only learn things like these by applying them. Let's do this more often if you got the time wink.gif

EDIT: I see why I did them wrong now.

Question 2: I confused minor scale with minor chords.

Question 3: Same thing.

Question 4: I think I meant powerchords... but I'm not sure whether that makes my answers right!



This post has been edited by SonofDestiny: Jan 13 2009, 08:51 AM


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fatb0t
post Jan 13 2009, 02:32 PM
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For question 4 you meant power chords.

Alright, so lets discuss power chords. If you want to refer to power chords definitively you need to say E5, B5, D5. Why do these 'chords' have a 5 at the end of them? Well, a power chord is comprised of the root and fifth interval of a scale.

So we're looking for chords that would fit in a E Minor scale.

We take the Eminor scale (E natural minor or E Aeolian) E F# G A B C D

To make all the chords in this scale we stack thirds. For E minor we get E G B - We get E min, if we stack 1 more third we get E G B D which Em7. So how do we get a power chord you ask? A power chord is only a root and a fifth - so instead of stacking thirds, we just put a fifth on top of a root. So E B is an E Powerchord or a E5.
E = EB
B=BF#
D=DA

So looking at the notes in your powerchords we get, EF#ABD. All these chords fit perfectly in the minor pentatonic (the F# isnt in the minor pentatonic but it's part of the natural minor scale, so it would fit perfectly). So you were correct afterall!

So what's really interesting about power chords are the fact that they omit the third interval. The third interval defines whether a chord is a Major or minor. As you stated before:
major is 1 3 5,
minor is 1 3b 5

So the flat 3rd (b3) makes it minor, the natural 3rd (3) makes it major. So you may be asking. what's the deal with these power chords? I don't see a 3rd interval at all in that chord, all I see is a root and a fifth?
This is why power chords are awesome, with distortion they sound very full and confident. They're the back bone of heavy metal. They're not bound to a particular tonality since they omit the 3rd. As long as the notes in the power chords exist in the given scale you're trying to solo in you're good to go!
So lets see what other scales will work with those three power chords you gave me.

EF#ABD

Ionian: E F# G# A B C# D# We compare this scale with our notes from the power chords. D# and D - out
Dorian: E F# G A B C# D This scale works well
Phrygian: E F G A B C D We might have some troubles with the F# but we could probably manage
Lydian: E F# G# A# B C# D Conflict between the A# from the Lydian and our A from the power chords
Mixolydian: E F# G# A B C# D This would work (notice this has a major third, but we can still use it)
Aeolian: E F# G A B C D This will definitely work
Locrian: E F G A Bb C D Bb will conflict with the B in your progression


Theory supplement: https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...?showtopic=3933

Read up!! Two explanations are better than one I find.

This post has been edited by fatb0t: Jan 13 2009, 02:58 PM
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