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> Where's Our Civil Rights Going?!
Ajmurrell
post Jan 9 2009, 03:33 AM
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I'll be honest straight away. I know very little on this subject!

But it seems to me like our civil rights here in the Uk are slowly being erased.

Most recently I heard the Police are getting rights to be able to access anyones computer via hacking, and today I read that ALL emails, both sent and recieved, will be stored by our ISP's for 12 months for public service access, including police, health authorities, local councils etc. Our phone call data is also already stored.

I wish I knew more on the subject of politics. Especially when it comes to things like this.

Any thoughts?


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Ctodd
post Jan 9 2009, 03:40 AM
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first I would make sure you got your facts right. I read something similar not too long ago, but it turned out that I misinterpreted the article, and the police (in the states) can't do anything without a warrant!

but yeah, if that's as true as it sounds, then it is a bit extreme. I hope I never live to see the day when they all make us wear bracelets ohmy.gif

I don't think that will ever come though. Too many books like 1984 were written laugh.gif people (i hope) are smart enough to never let it go too far


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blindwillie
post Jan 9 2009, 07:58 AM
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As I understand it he is right. There is a decision in EU about it and EU is now encouriging (yes, there are other ways to spell that tongue.gif ) all it's members to enforce that decision. GB is ofc fast to follow and I'm pretty sure Sweden will be next.
I haven't read it in any reliable sorce yt though. Just in the news. Like in this link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/poli...icle5439604.ece

And you are right anyway. Our rights are being degraded day by wit obscure motivation. The true reason is to protect the money and the illusion of living in a safe democracy.

/edit: omg the spelling! TEH SPELLING!

This post has been edited by blindwillie: Jan 9 2009, 07:59 AM


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VinceG
post Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM
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As you grow up more, you start to really realize that because of fear or any acts of terrorism (may it be physical or psychological), the government have the right, especially in US doctrine, that rights must be violated in order to protect the greater good. As you see, the constitution has many loop holes in the system. We may have rights, but those true rights are only in our heads.


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Tono Fyr
post Jan 9 2009, 08:39 AM
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A man (or nation) who gives up freedom for security will lose both.

That's my only thought on this subject.
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utak3r
post Jan 9 2009, 08:46 AM
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First - the data you mentioned is stored by an ISP, and if it's required, the police can demand showing it.
Then - yeah... Tono Fyr is right. They're doing this because of the terrorists fear, but it leads nowhere. They won't catch anyone this way but they have ruined our freedom, which leads straight to the police country. It's not right, sadly...


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Velvet Roger
post Jan 9 2009, 09:06 AM
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QUOTE (Tono Fyr @ Jan 9 2009, 08:39 AM) *
A man (or nation) who gives up freedom for security will lose both.

That's my only thought on this subject.


Well said. I have a similar thought about this smile.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jan 9 2009, 02:03 PM
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I don't think we will be wearing bracelets, but microchips in our heads or hands.
This is the ultimate control plan, cause then it allows for much better, cheaper and easier access than hacking computers and such.
I wouldn't bet on privacy too much these days, everything will become public in the years to follow, specially with VR. Whole world will become public and software, and coding/decoding will be the only barrier. Unlike the real world, decoding someones mail can be done a lot easier than braking into someones house and stealing letters. wink.gif


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Ramiro Delforte
post Jan 9 2009, 02:22 PM
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Here in Argentina the government tried to do the same thing but it's something impossible. The database to record the audio from the calls and the storage of the emails has to be huge so they didn't apply it.
I think it's all about the paranoia caused by the "terrorism".


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Jan 9 2009, 02:29 PM
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I didn't realise we had civil rights in the UK. laugh.gif


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fatb0t
post Jan 9 2009, 02:29 PM
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This is a fascinating subject Ajmurrell, when I was in undergrad I did a lot of studying on civil liberties and personal freedoms.
First and foremost, the UK has the most surveillance equipment on it's public than almost any other country in the world from what I've read. There is apparently cameras mounted across buildings and poles every few hundred feet. Many governments are trying to develop sophisticated face recognition software to track 'enemy combatants'. The US in particular has eroded many fundamental rules layed out by the framers of the Constitution in order to better 'protect our freedoms'...Especially concerning the need to obtain a warrant for accessing peoples computers, wire tapping their phones, or subpoenaing ISPs for customer data unchecked. The world is headed for an interesting direction, we shall see how things pan out.

These subjects used to bother me a great deal... erosion of civil liberties, corruption between business and government, the overwhelming feeling of powerlessness...Now I just play guitar and try not to think about it too much hahha
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ztevie
post Jan 9 2009, 03:22 PM
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There's always a consideration of where the line should be drawn with these things...
About cameras in public places: If this can help catch bad guys, and prevent crime, then I'm all for it. If it can prevent only one rape or murder then it's worth it... Only people who haven't seen a family member or relative being the victim can think it's more important with personal integrity.
About reading emails and monitoring compute traffic: Of course there need to be some authority checking that it's done properly. There must be some reason for authorities actually going in and checking specific persons correspondence. Something like a search warrant...

We are heading for a world that gets more and more unsecure, and this is the price we will have to pay. It's easy to talk about personal integrity, but if you have a family member or someone close to you being raped/killed/assaulted/murdered by terrorists, and something like the above could have prevented that, I'm sure you would scream your lungs out for more cameras and checking of bad guys email...


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OrganisedConfusi...
post Jan 9 2009, 03:35 PM
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One of my favourite songs ever is about everybody being constantly watched. It's by Death

1,000 Eyes

Crossing the line into the other side
Emerging as prisoners
To the emptiness of time

To the left and to the right
From behind - they're out of sight
Plunging into a new found
Age of advanced observeillance
A worldwide, foolproof cage

Privacy and intimacy as we know it
Will be a memory
Among many to be passed down
To those who never knew

Living in the pupil of 1,000 eyes

Was it overlooked in front of all our faces?
Now, all the mistakes and secrets
Cannot be erased

Viewing the blind complexity
By which laws were justified
To erase simplicity

To the left and to the right
From behind - they're out of sight
Plunging into a new found
Age of advanced observeillance
A worldwide, foolproof cage

Privacy and intimacy as we know it
Will be a memory
Among many to be passed down
To those who never knew

Living in the pupil of 1,000 eyes

We are enslaved now...


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Pedja Simovic
post Jan 9 2009, 06:08 PM
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Great thread !

As far as I know, Serbia is not going to be struck by any of the laws mentioned in years to come. Usually everything that happens in USA then Europe, Serbia follows couple of years later - which in this case I consider to be good news smile.gif

I feel in this world there will always be crime and if somebody decides to commit it there is very little we can do to prevent it - even with all the security measures and tracking.

So I would vote for both freedom and "control" but at the end I am happy it doesn't influence my life in Serbia , yet:)


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Bogdan Radovic
post Jan 9 2009, 11:14 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jan 9 2009, 06:08 PM) *
Great thread !

As far as I know, Serbia is not going to be struck by any of the laws mentioned in years to come. Usually everything that happens in USA then Europe, Serbia follows couple of years later - which in this case I consider to be good news smile.gif

I feel in this world there will always be crime and if somebody decides to commit it there is very little we can do to prevent it - even with all the security measures and tracking.

So I would vote for both freedom and "control" but at the end I am happy it doesn't influence my life in Serbia , yet:)


Well recently here in Serbia have been announced and maybe already in action the law that allows State services (police etc) to access our Emails and surfing data stored in ISP's...There is a big hype about it since internet providers need to buy (on their own cost) equipment that allows that kind of "spying"...

Generally I'm ok with that if it will allow for a safer community...I don't mind them reading my emails if they think I'm a threat and helping them to find "the bad guys" ...But than again it diminishes privacy and boundaries must be set somewhere.I just get a feeling that those boundaries will never be set , and from time to time we'll loose even more privacy...

This post has been edited by Bogdan Radovic: Jan 9 2009, 11:14 PM


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FrankW
post Jan 10 2009, 02:08 AM
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Any of these intrusive new laws should be accompanied by a caveat that once the threat, (whatever it may be), is determined to be neutralized, or deemed to be less of a threat, the "Big Brother" tactics are reined back in. Unfortunately, the threat is not going away any time soon. I too, think that I can live with this stuff if it leads to catching the bad guys. It has and it does. In that regard, I'm all for it.

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post Jan 10 2009, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (Ajmurrell @ Jan 9 2009, 03:33 AM) *
I'll be honest straight away. I know very little on this subject!

But it seems to me like our civil rights here in the Uk are slowly being erased.

Most recently I heard the Police are getting rights to be able to access anyones computer via hacking, and today I read that ALL emails, both sent and recieved, will be stored by our ISP's for 12 months for public service access, including police, health authorities, local councils etc. Our phone call data is also already stored.

I wish I knew more on the subject of politics. Especially when it comes to things like this.

Any thoughts?

They take away your civil rights and give you imaginary protection against a (partially) imaginary threat.
And it's actually very sad to see this. Because it's quite clear where we'll end up when we'll follow that path.
Orwells 1984 is a great book on the topic (and generally a great book) I think.

Protection against terrorists is needed, sure. But do something effective, like bringing education to "terrorist countries" instead of taking away privacy and other civil rights that are required for a working democracy.

One more thing to think about, how many people have been killed by terrorists in the last 100 years, and how many have been killed by governments going nuts?

- Jonas

PS: I hope this post does not offend anybody, it's only meant to express my opinion and I'm not aware of all the nuances of the English language (yet).


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mjsteps
post Jan 11 2009, 05:12 PM
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Here in the states our "civil liberties" are and have been slowly going by the wayside, with the appointment of liberal judges and politicans. With the incoming of "the new messiah" (i.e Obama) here in the states his first act will be to stop the wire tapping of suspected terrorists and or criminals. He will then proceed to close gitmo and other places like it there by assuring that "civil rights" be given to the very people we are trying to combat, ie terrorists and that these terrorist be placed in jails with ordinary criminals. They then will be given a trial by a jury by common civilians.
Here in the states we are on the brink of total goverment control. It was clear when the current politicians violated the constitution by "bailing out" some corporations and not others. It was clear with Harry Reid trying to deny a senator who was appointed by a "corrupt" govenor his seat in the senate. So as long as we have politicans seeking self gain, they will stop at nothing to strip us of our rights in order to get what they want. Control.
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Canis
post Jan 11 2009, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE (blindwillie @ Jan 9 2009, 07:58 AM) *
As I understand it he is right. There is a decision in EU about it and EU is now encouriging (yes, there are other ways to spell that tongue.gif ) all it's members to enforce that decision. GB is ofc fast to follow and I'm pretty sure Sweden will be next.

I'm glad Norway isn't a part of the EU.. And hopefully never will tongue.gif

QUOTE (VinceG @ Jan 9 2009, 08:22 AM) *
As you grow up more, you start to really realize that because of fear or any acts of terrorism (may it be physical or psychological), the government have the right, especially in US doctrine, that rights must be violated in order to protect the greater good. As you see, the constitution has many loop holes in the system. We may have rights, but those true rights are only in our heads.

(Disclaimer; the following opinion/speculation is entirely my own, and does not hold GMC responsible for anything provoked!)

Or in the case of the US government, they blow up some of their own buildings and claim their own rights to do and say whatever they like, as long as they slap a "Because of 9/11" on the plans.


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post Jan 11 2009, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (Canis @ Jan 11 2009, 06:20 PM) *
I'm glad Norway isn't a part of the EU.. And hopefully never will tongue.gif
That won't save you/us. Regarding Internet surveillance this is very clear, just look where all of your cables are going - into the eu. The next thing the EU is able to put a huge amount of pressure on other European countries to force them to do what they dictate. And finally, if there's a fourth Reich raising we'll all suffer... wink.gif


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