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> Where's Our Civil Rights Going?!
kahall
post Jan 11 2009, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE (Canis @ Jan 11 2009, 11:20 AM) *
I'm glad Norway isn't a part of the EU.. And hopefully never will tongue.gif


(Disclaimer; the following opinion/speculation is entirely my own, and does not hold GMC responsible for anything provoked!)

Or in the case of the US government, they blow up some of their own buildings and claim their own rights to do and say whatever they like, as long as they slap a "Because of 9/11" on the plans.


do you care to oh....I don't know prove that?



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Canis
post Jan 11 2009, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (kahall @ Jan 11 2009, 07:28 PM) *
do you care to oh....I don't know prove that?

I don't say this is evicence, but it's a speculation wink.gif

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kahall
post Jan 11 2009, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE (Canis @ Jan 11 2009, 12:59 PM) *
I don't say this is evicence, but it's a speculation wink.gif

Loose Change: Final Cut


Why did I know you would post a link to that. phht! That has been debunked so many times by so many.

I am officially speculating that you are responsible for 9/11. I have no proof but who cares.


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Ajmurrell
post Jan 12 2009, 02:34 AM
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Certainly is an interesting topic, and I tend to agree with most of you that small invasions of privacy are worth it, if it genuinely helps the average persons security.

As for me not having had anything happen to personal family or loved ones, you'd be mistaken. My girlfriend was sexually assualted last summer in a park on her way to work. The man was arrested and evidence taken from both my girlfriend and the man who commited the act. She, like me, suffers from anxiety disorders and was questioned by police, had to give statements, commit to appearing in court and being in the same room as this man. Was anxious and stressed for weeks. Then got a call saying that the police were dropping the case because they believed that it wasn't "worth" going to trial. The law ended up protecting the criminal in this instance, and in the UK this happens a lot.

Small invasions of privacy ARE acceptable IF its in the interest for the common people. My belief? Rubbish. Like all else in this world, governments are motivated by power, money and control. Sure they'll implement such security measures when its attacks on any of their areas of interest but I doubt they're looking out for me.

@Canis: I don't want to get involved in a "9/11 conspiracy" topic because I truely don't believe in airing an opinion unless you've done your research, especially on such a sensitive topic. I would say that I came across an interesting article a few months ago called "Operation Northwoods".

This post has been edited by Ajmurrell: Jan 12 2009, 02:35 AM


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mjsteps
post Jan 12 2009, 09:27 AM
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Okay let me see if I have this straight, some believe that 911 was a conspiricy (spelling)? You have got to be real. It is opinions like this that prove over and over again that post modern thinking is our current way of thought,ie there is no truth only speculation and as long as we have speculation despite the facts it does not matter.
Current example the law suit facing the New York times about the allegeded affair John Mcain had with a assocaiate. Editor knew the story was false but printed it anyway. Now they are being sued for 29 million.
I could go on ie Bill Clinton lying to grand jury, Al Gore losing the election, Michael Moore 911 film and his film on health care, global warming the list goes on.
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enforcer
post Jan 12 2009, 09:37 AM
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FrankW
post Jan 12 2009, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE (Canis @ Jan 11 2009, 06:20 PM) *
Or in the case of the US government, they blow up some of their own buildings and claim their own rights to do and say whatever they like, as long as they slap a "Because of 9/11" on the plans.


Are you telling me you honestly believe that 9/11 was a result of the U.S. government, and not terrorists? You're not buying into that conspiracy theory crap too, are you? You're only 18, so I'll cut you some slack. My advice to you is to do some research before you throw out an inflammatory statement like that. When I say research, check sites for cited sources, rather than visiting the usual far left smear sites that outright lie about the facts. Otherwise, it only makes you look foolish. wink.gif
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29a
post Jan 12 2009, 09:56 PM
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How many people died because of terrorist attacks?
How many people died because of car accidents?
How many people died because of cancer (possible because they smoked)?
... rolleyes.gif


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Canis
post Jan 12 2009, 09:57 PM
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I have been looking around for citations and facts that disproves it, but obviously I've been looking on wrong places, as I've mainly found sites that agrees with Loose Change. Where I live, we haven't heard much about anything else that's beeing said about 9/11, except the attack, and some videos passed around via e-mail (as Loose Change was).

I'm sorry if I hit a personal button on anyone with my comment.. But my point with that comment was simply that I get the image that the US Government use the statement "In the fear of terrorism" as VinceG said, to get new rights, as said in fatb0t's post.
Please correct me if I'm wrong smile.gif


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Ajmurrell
post Jan 12 2009, 10:53 PM
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Did you look up Operation Northwoods? I found that particular article very interesting.

QUOTE (Canis @ Jan 12 2009, 08:57 PM) *
I have been looking around for citations and facts that disproves it, but obviously I've been looking on wrong places, as I've mainly found sites that agrees with Loose Change. Where I live, we haven't heard much about anything else that's beeing said about 9/11, except the attack, and some videos passed around via e-mail (as Loose Change was).

I'm sorry if I hit a personal button on anyone with my comment.. But my point with that comment was simply that I get the image that the US Government use the statement "In the fear of terrorism" as VinceG said, to get new rights, as said in fatb0t's post.
Please correct me if I'm wrong smile.gif



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FrankW
post Jan 12 2009, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE (Canis @ Jan 12 2009, 09:57 PM) *
I have been looking around for citations and facts that disproves it, but obviously I've been looking on wrong places, as I've mainly found sites that agrees with Loose Change. Where I live, we haven't heard much about anything else that's beeing said about 9/11, except the attack, and some videos passed around via e-mail (as Loose Change was).

I'm sorry if I hit a personal button on anyone with my comment.. But my point with that comment was simply that I get the image that the US Government use the statement "In the fear of terrorism" as VinceG said, to get new rights, as said in fatb0t's post.
Please correct me if I'm wrong smile.gif


Canis, there are plenty of sites on the internet that give out false information. In order to weed out the facts from the lies, one must use a certain amount of common sense. A statement or idea that makes sense is more likely to be true than one that makes outrageous claims.
Europe, and I mean no disrespect when I say this, is a very liberal society as compared to the U.S. Many people in Europe hate the U.S. and what it stands for, for whatever reasons. I don't know if it's jealousy or elitism or a disagreement with the way our country is run. But, many sites spring up full of vile hatred for the U.S., including many far left smear sites here in the U.S., and they spew lies and make outrageous claims in order to denigrate the U.S. All I'm saying is, don't believe everything you hear, and definitely, where the internet is concerned, don't believe everything you read.
If you research hard enough, and use some common sense, you will find the truth. But I'm telling you, if you believe that we blew up our own Twin Towers, killing thousands of our own people in order to justify spending billions of dollars and lose thousands of lives fighting a war on terror, I have to say that you need to pull your head out of your ass.
The next thing you know, you'll be telling me that Israel is the bad guys and HAMAS are being victimized. And you'll tell me that because the very same websites you visit preaching the conspiracy theory crap will be telling you this. Wake up people.
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mjsteps
post Jan 12 2009, 11:29 PM
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First let me state that I was not offended nor is the topic so much a hot button. The very notion of an inside job by the US goverment to kill thousands, send its financial institutions ( the world trade center )into a tail spin is absurb.
Second the very topic is a serious one to say the least. It appears to be simple either we have terrorist threats or we do not have terrorist threats and for to long many threats went by the wayside and the results were catastraphic.
The best example to date is what we are seeing played out in Israel. Israel is a recognized state and has a right to exist, protect its intrests and its borders according to the threats it encounters. Hamas and Hezbollah are not recogniozed states but on the contrary are classified as "Terrorists" so why is the UN trying to restrict Isreal and yet allow "terrorists" the benefit of the doubt with no strings attached?
The threat is real but when dealing with "terrorists" how is one to protect itself? Israel has been dealing with this problem for years and it appears that no progress will ever be made as long as the "relgious belief" is that they are "dogs" and should not exsist.
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Ajmurrell
post Jan 12 2009, 11:30 PM
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I agree with you on most of what you have said. People should be wary of what they read online, and in the news. You would hope that news organisations would be unbiased and fairly reported, but sadly this is not the case.

Conspiracy Theories always spread from the smallest of possibilities, when most times the obvious is far more likely and is overlooked because of a lack of trust, which are usually thought up by people who were biased in the first place.


QUOTE (FrankW @ Jan 12 2009, 10:09 PM) *
Canis, there are plenty of sites on the internet that give out false information. In order to weed out the facts from the lies, one must use a certain amount of common sense. A statement or idea that makes sense is more likely to be true than one that makes outrageous claims.
Europe, and I mean no disrespect when I say this, is a very liberal society as compared to the U.S. Many people in Europe hate the U.S. and what it stands for, for whatever reasons. I don't know if it's jealousy or elitism or a disagreement with the way our country is run. But, many sites spring up full of vile hatred for the U.S., including many far left smear sites here in the U.S., and they spew lies and make outrageous claims in order to denigrate the U.S. All I'm saying is, don't believe everything you hear, and definitely, where the internet is concerned, don't believe everything you read.
If you research hard enough, and use some common sense, you will find the truth. But I'm telling you, if you believe that we blew up our own Twin Towers, killing thousands of our own people in order to justify spending billions of dollars and lose thousands of lives fighting a war on terror, I have to say that you need to pull your head out of your ass.
The next thing you know, you'll be telling me that Israel is the bad guys and HAMAS are being victimized. And you'll tell me that because the very same websites you visit preaching the conspiracy theory crap will be telling you this. Wake up people.



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Niko Fran
post Jan 12 2009, 11:34 PM
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QUOTE (mjsteps @ Jan 11 2009, 05:12 PM) *
He will then proceed to close gitmo and other places like it there by assuring that "civil rights" be given to the very people we are trying to combat, ie terrorists and that these terrorist be placed in jails with ordinary criminals. They then will be given a trial by a jury by common civilians.


Is giving people a trial a bad thing?
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FrankW
post Jan 12 2009, 11:42 PM
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QUOTE (mjsteps @ Jan 12 2009, 11:29 PM) *
First let me state that I was not offended nor is the topic so much a hot button. The very notion of an inside job by the US goverment to kill thousands, send its financial institutions ( the world trade center )into a tail spin is absurb.
Second the very topic is a serious one to say the least. It appears to be simple either we have terrorist threats or we do not have terrorist threats and for to long many threats went by the wayside and the results were catastraphic.
The best example to date is what we are seeing played out in Israel. Israel is a recognized state and has a right to exist, protect its intrests and its borders according to the threats it encounters. Hamas and Hezbollah are not recogniozed states but on the contrary are classified as "Terrorists" so why is the UN trying to restrict Isreal and yet allow "terrorists" the benefit of the doubt with no strings attached?
The threat is real but when dealing with "terrorists" how is one to protect itself? Israel has been dealing with this problem for years and it appears that no progress will ever be made as long as the "relgious belief" is that they are "dogs" and should not exsist.


I agree. HAMAS has been lobbing rockets and mortar shells into Israel for months. They are killing innocent people indescriminately. They are not targeting military objectives, but just anyone; men, women, children. If Israel attacks HAMAS, it's only in self-defense. Israel will not eliminate HAMAS, as they will spring anew with Irans' help. After all, they are a proxy of Irans'. But, every once in awhile, Israel needs to clean house to minimize the threat. I am behind them 100%.

This post has been edited by FrankW: Jan 12 2009, 11:45 PM
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29a
post Jan 12 2009, 11:44 PM
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QUOTE (mjsteps @ Jan 12 2009, 11:29 PM) *
so why is the UN trying to restrict Isreal and yet allow "terrorists" the benefit of the doubt with no strings attached?
The threat is real but when dealing with "terrorists" how is one to protect itself? Israel has been dealing with this problem for years and it appears that no progress will ever be made as long as the "relgious belief" is that they are "dogs" and should not exsist.
May be because Isreal is shooting their truck drivers?. Or maybe because they are using outlawed weapons like cluster bombs? But to be honest, I'm not in favor of either side in that war - simply because I don't think there's a reliable way to get information about what's really happening down there. But I would be interested about the information sources of the people who favor any of the two sides.

This post has been edited by 29a: Jan 12 2009, 11:45 PM


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FrankW
post Jan 12 2009, 11:54 PM
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QUOTE (29a @ Jan 12 2009, 11:44 PM) *
May be because Isreal is shooting their truck drivers?. Or maybe because they are using outlawed weapons like cluster bombs? But to be honest, I'm not in favor of either side in that war - simply because I don't think there's a reliable way to get information about what's really happening down there. But I would be interested about the information sources of the people who favor any of the two sides.


You believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want. It's called taking a stand. HAMAS and Hezbollah are self-proclaimed terrorist organizations. This isn't news. They are enemies of the world, not just Israel. If you do as I suggested to Canis, and research, you will be enlightened enough to choose a side.
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29a
post Jan 13 2009, 01:12 AM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Jan 12 2009, 11:54 PM) *
You believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want. It's called taking a stand. HAMAS and Hezbollah are self-proclaimed terrorist organizations. This isn't news. They are enemies of the world, not just Israel. If you do as I suggested to Canis, and research, you will be enlightened enough to choose a side.
I did some research on this, otherwise I wouldn't even be talking about it. I do also respect your opinion, but I don't think that it is as simple as Isreal is fighting terrorists so Isreal must be right. What HAMAS, Hezbollah is wrong, I agree on that one. But is Israel doing the right thing? I don't know.

- Jonas

BTW, we're drifting away from the subject.


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FrankW
post Jan 13 2009, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (29a @ Jan 13 2009, 01:12 AM) *
I did some research on this, otherwise I wouldn't even be talking about it. I do also respect your opinion, but I don't think that it is as simple as Isreal is fighting terrorists so Isreal must be right. What HAMAS, Hezbollah is wrong, I agree on that one. But is Israel doing the right thing? I don't know.

- Jonas

BTW, we're drifting away from the subject.



I also respect your opinion. And please excuse my somewhat aggressive responses. Look at it like this; being as these guys are self-proclaimed terrorists, that means they will kill any and all, indescriminately, who don't back their cause. That means they are murderers.
In our country, we hunt down murderers, and dispense justice upon them. This is what Israel is doing. Are innocent people being killed as a result? Yes. This is an unfortunate casualty of war. Terrorists hide amongst the indigenous population, and place the innocents in harms' way. HAMAS stores weapons in schools and mosques, so as to make Israel look bad when these buildings are destroyed.
But, it's either destroy the weapons, and kill as many bad guys as possible, or continue to suffer cowardly attacks on Israelis, military or otherwise.
There will soon be a cease fire. Everybody will go back home and start anew. And sometime later HAMAS will begin rocket attacks on innocents again, and Israel will, and should, respond again. Life sucks over there. But until the way of the muslim extremist is annihilated and eradicated, there will always be war.
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ztevie
post Jan 13 2009, 04:23 AM
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The conflict in the middle east seems to have no solution at all... Here in Europe, anyway in Sweden, you can see a lot of media taking the palestinian side.... Maybe because Israel is the stronger part, it's more appealing to cheer for the weaker side.
For me, I'm not certain about anything in the middle east, but I find something rather strange:
Fact 1. EU and Sweden have recognized Israel as an independent nation.
Fact 2. EU and Sweden have officially proclaimed Hamas to be a terrorist organization
Fact 3. Hamas sanction rocket launches from their territory in Gaza

So why can't Israel retaliate and protect their people, without being bashed in the media?
I understand Israel is seen as a occupant of some areas down there, but weren't they attacked in -67 by several nations which led to Israels victory in that war, thus occupating the said areas?
And think about it, almost all of Israels neighbor want to see Israel annihilated. With Iran leaders actually saying this officially... I understand them, they actually fight for their existence here.

Maybe it aint so black and white, I can realize that, but I feel media here are very biased, if you look at the things I wrote above...


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