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Fsgdjv
post Jan 14 2009, 01:48 AM
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QUOTE (enforcer @ Jan 14 2009, 12:36 AM) *
I dont think world getting sympathetic with HAMAS, but only with palestinian people. And if you say that HAMAS is actually the palestinian people because they elected them as a government, I must say you are making a great mistake.


I don't know if this was directed to me, but I can see how it might have come of as I meant that. I feel a lot of sympathy for the Palistinian people and I think what Israel are doing in gaza is horrible. What they are doing is terrorism in my eyes. Killing civilians to make HAMAS give up or something, I don't know what they are trying to accomplish. If they aren't trying to hurt civilians then they are just incompetent, and incompetent persons with big guns are no better than terrorists.

What I meant was merely that I think it's sad that HAMAS got elected as the government, and it shocked me when they were elected. But I suppose there are many desperate palestinians who want anybody who can fight to fight for them, but just like what Israel is doing in Gaza right now is wrong (in my little world at least), having HAMAS as government is also the wrong way to do this. But desperate times calls for desperate needs and I suppose that's how both sides are thinking. It's hard to understand things like this from my perspective, far away from any war in the world.


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enforcer
post Jan 14 2009, 02:13 AM
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QUOTE (Fsgdjv @ Jan 14 2009, 02:48 AM) *
I don't know if this was directed to me, but I can see how it might have come of as I meant that. I feel a lot of sympathy for the Palistinian people and I think what Israel are doing in gaza is horrible. What they are doing is terrorism in my eyes. Killing civilians to make HAMAS give up or something, I don't know what they are trying to accomplish. If they aren't trying to hurt civilians then they are just incompetent, and incompetent persons with big guns are no better than terrorists.

What I meant was merely that I think it's sad that HAMAS got elected as the government, and it shocked me when they were elected. But I suppose there are many desperate palestinians who want anybody who can fight to fight for them, but just like what Israel is doing in Gaza right now is wrong (in my little world at least), having HAMAS as government is also the wrong way to do this. But desperate times calls for desperate needs and I suppose that's how both sides are thinking. It's hard to understand things like this from my perspective, far away from any war in the world.


No buddy that wasnt directed to you, I replied mjsteps' post biggrin.gif



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FrankW
post Jan 14 2009, 03:29 AM
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Routing out terrorist organizations like HAMAS is the hardest kind of fight because they intersperse with the Palestinians and Hezbollah hides amongst the Lebanese. These organizations are also supported by alot of the population who hate Israel. They are counting on the rest of the world applying pressure on Israel because of the collateral damage the Israelis inflict on civilians as a result of strikes on terrorist strongholds, that happen to be in neighborhoods full of innocents.

So, what is Israel supposed to do? Should they knock on every door in all the neighborhoods and ask for the bad guys to come out and fight? The bad guys are placing civilians in harms' way purposely, in order to sway public opinion about how Israel conducts war. Israels' battle plan, whatever it is, is designed to inflict the most damage on the bad guys, while minimizing casualties on their own soldiers and the civilian population. They know that the minute there is a civilian killed, they will be placed under the microscope.

Any collateral damage that is inflicted on the Palestinians is the fault of HAMAS, not Israel, because they choose to fight like cowards by hiding amongst the populace. The best Israel can do is to mark targets based on accurate intelligence, and hit them. If innocents are around, the best the Israelis can hope for is to keep the collateral damage to a minimum. Until we, (or Israel), can implement super smart weapons technology that can seek out and destroy individual targets even more accurately than our current arsenal of smart weapons, there will always be collateral damage.

But, Israel has every right to go in and rout out the bad guys who are lobbing rockets and mortar shells into Israel indescriminitaley, as they have been doing for months. It's too bad about the collateral damage, but an unfortunate result of a necessary, and justified campaign to stomp out terrorism.
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ztevie
post Jan 14 2009, 04:12 AM
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Do people here mean that Israel could have chose another way to fight Hamas?
As FrankW says, should they knock on doors, asking them to come out?

I don't know, I would like to know how it is possible to fight a "clean" war? Everyone here seem to pretty much agree that Israel have the right to take on Hamas, but they don't agree with the way to do it.
Sorry, war is not clean... The ideal situation would have been that the Palestinian didn't elect Hamas, and that people there would clean out those elements among themselves, then maybe peace talk would be possible. Right now I think that Palestinian people feel very much hatred against Israel for "taking their land", and many sympathise with organizations as Hamas because of this...

Yep, we sit here in safety, and tell other countries how horrible they behave and that they need to fight a clean war, or don't fight at all... From Israel point of view they NEED to do something about Hamas, from Palestinian point of view they NEED to fight the oppressors. So the spiral spins faster and deeper, which will probably end as all wars traditionally always did: One side wins and one loose, devastation and death is the result, among women, children and men. Just because mankind have more sophisticated weapons now, don't mean we spare more lives in the name of humanity, we just kill eachother faster and more efficient, that's all... It's naive to think we are more civilized now than we were 300 years ago...

Anyway, we may be in for something completely different. I think this year we will see an attack on Iran, either by USA, or at least by Israel knocking out Iranian nuclear facilities by air. Israel and USA feel they can not afford to let Iran, who's leader stated that Israel should be annihilated from the face of the earth, develop nuclear missiles.
So if you think this is bad...? well, 2009 can prove to be a real test for the whole world..
As if the finance crisis isn't enough, huh? dry.gif


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FrankW
post Jan 14 2009, 06:53 AM
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QUOTE (ztevie @ Jan 14 2009, 04:12 AM) *
Just because mankind have more sophisticated weapons now, don't mean we spare more lives in the name of humanity, we just kill eachother faster and more efficient, that's all... It's naive to think we are more civilized now than we were 300 years ago...

Anyway, we may be in for something completely different. I think this year we will see an attack on Iran, either by USA, or at least by Israel knocking out Iranian nuclear facilities by air. Israel and USA feel they can not afford to let Iran, who's leader stated that Israel should be annihilated from the face of the earth, develop nuclear missiles.
So if you think this is bad...? well, 2009 can prove to be a real test for the whole world..
As if the finance crisis isn't enough, huh? dry.gif


I agree with most of what you say. But developing "smart" weapons was brought about to minimize collateral damage. Carpet bombing destroyed everything in sight in hopes of knocking out certain targets. Smart weapon technology is infinitely more precise. LGBs, JDAMs, and Tomohawk cruise missles can be directed into a certain window of a building due to their precise guidance systems, as opposed to dumb bomb technology that would require many more munitions deployed to ensure the destruction of a specific target, with the added danger of much collateral damage.

I'm proud of the technological advances in certain weaponry, but sad that in the world society we live in, it is still necessary. I come off like a hawk, but am no more ready to send my 21 year old son to war, than anyone else.

And yeah, look for a strike on Irans' nuclear facilities very soon. Israel will without a doubt make that happen, and they should. They knocked out a nuclear reactor in Iraq in 1981, and one in Syria in 2008. Otherwise, they would have been in immediate danger of a nuclear strike. They are smack dab in the middle of a sandstorm, and have a ridiculous amount of crap to deal with.

The U.S. may very likely be drawn into the fray, and there will be a real mess to contend with. Some people believe that U.S. involvement in the Middle East is about oil, and it is to a certain extent. Our dependence on foreign oil is at 65-70%, and almost all of it from countries that don't like us. We can blame our short-sighted political "leaders" on that.

But the bigger picture is about our alliance to Israel. Being that is the case, a jihad is being waged on us, and the rest of the western world. Make no mistake about the fact that radical extremists the world over will do everything in their power to try to destroy us. You can't negotiate with fanatics. The only option is to destroy them.

Ztevie is correct in his assessment about the lack of civility in our civilization, we have a long way to go as a human race. In the meantime, it's kill or be killed. I choose termination with extreme prejudice.

QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Jan 13 2009, 03:27 PM) *
Americans are doing a great job of destroying the world. And yes 9/11 probably was an inside job
But politics is a sensitive area on GMC so I wouldn't talk about this too much.


O.C., I'm not going to dignify your moronic comments with a response other than the fact that I find it interesting that you would throw out inflammatory comments like the above, followed by a statement not to discuss it. You're a genius!


Edited for language. /Micke

This post has been edited by MickeM: Jan 14 2009, 07:12 AM
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kahall
post Jan 14 2009, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Jan 13 2009, 11:53 PM) *
[..]


O.C., I'm not going to dignify your moronic comments with a response other than the fact that I find it interesting that you would throw out inflammatory comments like the above, followed by a statement not to discuss it. You're a genius!


Edited for language. /Micke


Moonbats and Troofers. They're everywhere. I had to go through the inside job stuff with my own son a few years back so I understand that people can fall for the crazy, nutty troofer theory. It was brought on by the loosechange idiots. I had him read Debunking the 9/11 Myths from popular mechanics and that straightened him out. Or maybe he just likes having a roof over his head and something to eat every once in a while. It really freaked me out but I was able to turn him around. He is older now and he is going to be fine. 9/11 changed us all. Most for the better, others not so much.

Still though, I am enjoying reading others thoughts on all this. I do have a lot to add and maybe I will, but for now I want to practice. If this thread does not get locked maybe I will get on my soap box. There is a lot to respond to.



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utak3r
post Jan 14 2009, 08:56 AM
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The problem with Hamas and alike is that even when Arafat was a Palestinian leader (that was a great guy) he could do nothing about them... it's a pitty people like that take their religion and misinterpret it (well, both sides do that) and treat jiihad (or whatever it should be spelled wink.gif ) as this, which clearly is not proper... ah, well. There's no easy way of resolving this conflict, really.


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mjsteps
post Jan 14 2009, 09:22 AM
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Well I respectfully disagree. As the Koran seperates people into three catagoreies. Those who adhere to the Koran, Jews and Infidels. I would ask you then to explain the korans "Escatology" or end of the world scenrio? As seen in most Relgious writings i.e the jews are waiting for the messiah, i.e the christians are waiting on the return of the messiah. So what is the message in the Koran?

Any religion that kills in the name of God has to be skewed. Any relegion that promises "virgins" as a reward for fighting for the faith is perverted and a distortion of the image of God. It is what it is but no one wants to come out and say it.


As far as missing the point I think that I am on the mark. Hamas and Hezbollah are defined by the world as "terrorists". Israel has a right to defend itself as does any nation. As with any war, it is not pretty nor am I saying that I am jumping up and down over the death and carnage. But what would your country do? How do you "reason" with terrorists?
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utak3r
post Jan 14 2009, 09:29 AM
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Of course, that killing in the name of God is (autocensorship...). It's just every nation doing this just misinterpret its religion. Neither Koran says it's good nor christians nor some else... Yes I know christians were doing the same hundreds of years ago, they were killing in the name of God - and I'm ashamed by this fact really.

My country? My country was under annexation for hundreds of years... we were fighting for our freedom and finally succeeded in the beginning of XIX century after about 300 years of the fight.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Jan 14 2009, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (mjsteps @ Jan 14 2009, 09:22 AM) *
... I would ask you then to explain the korans "Escatology" or end of the world scenrio? As seen in most Relgious writings i.e the jews are waiting for the messiah, i.e the christians are waiting on the return of the messiah. So what is the message in the Koran?

...


My understanding of the eschatology of the Qur'an is that it is based on the belief that everyone will be judged by Allah at the end of days. Those found worthy will enter paradise (regardless of religious belief), whilst those who are not will be condemned to hell. (Apologies if I have this wrong.)

Arguably where this differs from a relatively modern (ie post-Lutherian) Christian eschatology leaves open the idea that humanity may transcend to Spirit. In Hegel's 'Phenomenology of Spirit', for instance, humanity progresses towards perfection. Notably though this is quite a modern Christian eschatology and not one that is true of all Christian doctrine, much of which still refers to a judgment by God and eternal salvation or damnation.

Cheers,
Tony



As the thread has moved on to discussing religion and holy works as part of its argumentation...

What is important in the discussion of any religion and the related religious work is that they are held to be holy by some people, including some members of GMC. We should remember this and be respectful of the beliefs of others as we would expect their respect of our own. Tony - for and on behalf of the moderation team



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utak3r
post Jan 14 2009, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE
As the thread has moved on to discussing religion and holy works as part of its argumentation...


even better.... I'd suggest to close this thread before we go any further wink.gif


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post Jan 14 2009, 02:36 PM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Jan 14 2009, 05:53 AM) *
O.C., I'm not going to dignify your moronic comments with a response other than the fact that I find it interesting that you would throw out inflammatory comments like the above, followed by a statement not to discuss it. You're a genius!

I meant I wasn't going to go deeper than that as people's strongest thoughts not everybody will agree with. A lot of very dodgy occurences happened on 9/11. For instance the BBC reported on a 3rd building collapsing before it actually had fallen. And the way the towers collapsed and the planes exploded wasn't scientifically possible according to many top scientists. I agree some of the 9/11 theories are ridiculous like the Aircraft were actually holograms. But don't believe everything you're told to believe. We are constantly fed lies. You have to weed out the truth and where I don't believe the government on 9/11 completely I also don't believe the conspiracy theories fully and obviously not all Americans are trying to destroy the world but many are. It classifies anybody as a terrorist and they are the main terrorists. They are killing innocent people on a mass scale.

I think people who totally discount the theories on 9/11 are afraid of finding out the truth that the US Government didn't mind losing that number of lives in order to start a terrorist capturing campaign. There are terrorists everywhere and in every culture and every religion. But US government seems to think it is just Muslims. They are so very wrong.

But just because you can't handle another person's opinion doesn't make me wrong. Your comments are even more moronic to me. You can't see past the end of your nose I don't think so don't have a go at me please. You seem to have a go at me when I post anything just because I don't conform to your beliefs.

This post has been edited by OrganisedConfusion: Jan 14 2009, 02:41 PM


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enforcer
post Jan 14 2009, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (mjsteps @ Jan 14 2009, 10:22 AM) *
Well I respectfully disagree. As the Koran seperates people into three catagoreies. Those who adhere to the Koran, Jews and Infidels. I would ask you then to explain the korans "Escatology" or end of the world scenrio? As seen in most Relgious writings i.e the jews are waiting for the messiah, i.e the christians are waiting on the return of the messiah. So what is the message in the Koran?

Any religion that kills in the name of God has to be skewed. Any relegion that promises "virgins" as a reward for fighting for the faith is perverted and a distortion of the image of God. It is what it is but no one wants to come out and say it.


As far as missing the point I think that I am on the mark. Hamas and Hezbollah are defined by the world as "terrorists". Israel has a right to defend itself as does any nation. As with any war, it is not pretty nor am I saying that I am jumping up and down over the death and carnage. But what would your country do? How do you "reason" with terrorists?


I am sorry buddy but you are still incorrect, any religion in the world separates people into at least two catagories : followers of the faith, and infidels. In Koran, Jews are seperated from infidels because they believe in God but they are refusing to spread the Gospel. So they are in a place above the infidels but lower the Faithful. IMO this is reasonable, because this is a book of faith filled with dogmas. What could it say, "You may not believe in god but we love you anyway?"

Every religion has some misinterpreted parts that turned it to proclaim that killing for god is something good. Crusades, Zealots, Extreme Islamist Terrorism are the result of this.

In Koran people are waiting for the judgement day, in some interpretations we are waiting for messiah to return to destroy deggial (antichrist). Because in Koran there is a part where it says, Christ shall return to world because he is not killed, in his last moment before he crucified, God concealed him from the eyes of his aggressors and he put in place of him that traitor Judas to be crucified. And after his return to his believers God rose him to heavens, he shall return back to earth because he is not dead.

And this "virgins" matter. The word "virgin" in todays arabic, is the word used for the word GRAPE for aramian/arabic of the 6th century. So God is offering you a little branch of grape in heaven for what you have done in life, thus teaching you humility even there. Todays extremist interpretors use the word virgins on purpose to use teenage boys to join the ranks of terrorists...

I seriously care for your respectful attitude buddy, and call for others too, to follow your good example. We should relax a bit or drop the subject biggrin.gif

Cheers smile.gif

Can

This post has been edited by enforcer: Jan 14 2009, 02:51 PM


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incoming spoiler read it at your own risk!


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Vigier G.V Wood HH
American Stratocaster Maple Standart with X2N bridge pickups
Samwick Artist custom modified Baswood Lespaul with S.Duncan JB and N56 pickups
Self made Fretless Strat type made of Rosewood/Maple with self wound Neck and Ibanez V8 Bridge Pickups
Floor Pod 2.0 Amp Simulation System
Pod Xt Pro Rack Amp Simulation System
Digitech TSR 12 Rack Effect and Studio Reverb
Behringer Composer Rack Compressor Expander
Morley Bad Horsie Wah Pedal
Behringer FB1010 Floor Board



it, surely, spoiled me!!!


and may the force be with you :)
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OrganisedConfusi...
post Jan 14 2009, 02:51 PM
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There are terrorists in every religion and with some non religious people also. But for some reason most people only mention Islamic Terrorists.


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Mandos
post Jan 14 2009, 02:55 PM
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It's because Islamic terrorists is today's version of the Russian threat during the eighties.

This post has been edited by Mandos: Jan 14 2009, 02:55 PM


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enforcer
post Jan 14 2009, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (Mandos @ Jan 14 2009, 03:55 PM) *
It's because Islamic terrorists is today's version of the Russian threat during the eighties.


Or somebody want us to believe thah to create a diversion, they are stealing the money on our pockets, endangering our health, brainwashing our children when we look at that, just like how they were doing that with Russian threat during the eighties.

Wow, I sounded like a conspiracy wacko, I am sorry for that... laugh.gif

Cheers

Can


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incoming spoiler read it at your own risk!


Spoiler:


Vigier G.V Wood HH
American Stratocaster Maple Standart with X2N bridge pickups
Samwick Artist custom modified Baswood Lespaul with S.Duncan JB and N56 pickups
Self made Fretless Strat type made of Rosewood/Maple with self wound Neck and Ibanez V8 Bridge Pickups
Floor Pod 2.0 Amp Simulation System
Pod Xt Pro Rack Amp Simulation System
Digitech TSR 12 Rack Effect and Studio Reverb
Behringer Composer Rack Compressor Expander
Morley Bad Horsie Wah Pedal
Behringer FB1010 Floor Board



it, surely, spoiled me!!!


and may the force be with you :)
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Duncan
post Jan 14 2009, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE (FrankW @ Jan 14 2009, 02:29 AM) *
Any collateral damage that is inflicted on the Palestinians is the fault of HAMAS, not Israel, because they choose to fight like cowards by hiding amongst the populace. The best Israel can do is to mark targets based on accurate intelligence, and hit them. If innocents are around, the best the Israelis can hope for is to keep the collateral damage to a minimum. Until we, (or Israel), can implement super smart weapons technology that can seek out and destroy individual targets even more accurately than our current arsenal of smart weapons, there will always be collateral damage.


I'm sorry but you can't justify the loss of innocent life.
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utak3r
post Jan 14 2009, 07:48 PM
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It's just as someone said it already - look at Ireland - they achieved quite a nice status after so long war... it's doable. It's tough, but it's possible.


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FrankW
post Jan 14 2009, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (OrganisedConfusion @ Jan 14 2009, 02:36 PM) *
I meant I wasn't going to go deeper than that as people's strongest thoughts not everybody will agree with. A lot of very dodgy occurences happened on 9/11. For instance the BBC reported on a 3rd building collapsing before it actually had fallen. And the way the towers collapsed and the planes exploded wasn't scientifically possible according to many top scientists. I agree some of the 9/11 theories are ridiculous like the Aircraft were actually holograms. But don't believe everything you're told to believe. We are constantly fed lies. You have to weed out the truth and where I don't believe the government on 9/11 completely I also don't believe the conspiracy theories fully and obviously not all Americans are trying to destroy the world but many are. It classifies anybody as a terrorist and they are the main terrorists. They are killing innocent people on a mass scale.

I think people who totally discount the theories on 9/11 are afraid of finding out the truth that the US Government didn't mind losing that number of lives in order to start a terrorist capturing campaign. There are terrorists everywhere and in every culture and every religion. But US government seems to think it is just Muslims. They are so very wrong.

But just because you can't handle another person's opinion doesn't make me wrong. Your comments are even more moronic to me. You can't see past the end of your nose I don't think so don't have a go at me please. You seem to have a go at me when I post anything just because I don't conform to your beliefs.


I'm simply responding to your outrageous claims. You throw out comments like the U.S. is destroying the world, and 9/11 probably was an inside job, and you expect that crap to go unchallenged? It's immature, outrageous, unfounded nonsense. Your opinion lacks no factual backup, you're buying into far left garbage about the U.S. being the bullies of the world, instead of sorting out facts from fiction. So yeah. when you stir up a hornets' nest, expect consequences. Quit acting like a baby.
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jdriver
post Jan 14 2009, 08:30 PM
Post #80


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--------------------
"I dreamed a lot when I was younger..
I'm older now but still I hunger
For some understanding.
There's no understanding, now.
Was there ever?

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