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> Discussion : Gmc Endorsement/validation Program
Fran
post Jan 24 2009, 11:46 PM
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This is just awesome. I'm thrilled about this whole thing!

GMC meets AD&D, the plan sounds amazing!. Plus the feedback in this thread is just great, so many cool ideas... Can't wait! smile.gif smile.gif





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opeth.db
post Jan 24 2009, 11:55 PM
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Very cool ideas and can't wait to get this rolling..



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Col Roberts
post Jan 25 2009, 03:28 AM
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How about something along these lines:

Beginner.......... Lesson Difficulty 1-2 ...... 7 lessons......then 3 lessons chosen by the panel
Beg/Int............ Lesson Difficulty 3-4 ...... 7 lessons......then 3 lessons chosen by the panel
Intermediate.... Lesson Difficulty 5-6 ...... 5 lessons......then 3 lessons chosen by the panel
Int/Adv............ Lesson Difficulty 7-8 ...... 4 lessons......then 3 lessons chosen by the panel
Advanced......... Lesson Difficulty 9-10..... 3 lessons......then 2 lessons chosen by the panel

The expectations for each level have to be made clear, and, of course, lessons selected would have to cover these expectations.

You can come in at any level and complete the lessons to achieve the ranking. Once you've submitted the required number of lessons the panel then chooses the final lessons. If you've chosen lessons mainly on the lower side of the difficulty level, the final lessons might be at the higher level. Also, the final lessons should include any techniques that may have been missed.

I don't think the process should be too complex. Achieving a ranking shouldn't be easy, nor should it be too daunting, especially for beginners. Some lessons could take months, especially if you have to master a new technique.

I think the first ranking (Beginner) should be known as Guitar Rookie.

In the future, collaborations could also be done according to the different rankings. A bonus for the instructors as they will know your playing abilities.

Anyway, I'm ready for any endorsement program .... bring it on!.

This post has been edited by Col Roberts: Jan 25 2009, 06:00 AM
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Velvet Roger
post Jan 25 2009, 06:00 AM
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Awesome idea, with very nice input already. Looking forward to it smile.gif.

QUOTE (Col Roberts @ Jan 25 2009, 03:28 AM) *
How about something along these lines:

Beginner.......... Lesson Difficulty 1-2 ...... 7 lessons......then 3 lessons chosen by the panel
Beg/Int............ Lesson Difficulty 3-4 ...... 7 lessons......then 3 lessons chosen by the panel
Intermediate.... Lesson Difficulty 5-6 ...... 5 lessons......then 3 lessons chosen by the panel
Int/Adv............ Lesson Difficulty 7-8 ...... 4 lessons......then 3 lessons chosen by the panel
Advanced......... Lesson Difficulty 9-10..... 3 lessons......then 2 lessons chosen by the panel

The expectations for each level have to be made clear, and, of course, lessons selected would have to cover these expectations.

You can come in at any level and complete the lessons to achieve the ranking. Once you've submitted the required number of lessons the panel then chooses the final lessons. If you've chosen lessons mainly on the lower side of the difficulty level, the final lessons might be at the higher level. Also, the final lessons should include any techniques that may have been missed.

I don't think the process should be too complex. Achieving a ranking shouldn't be easy, nor should it be too daunting, especially for beginners. Some lessons could take months, especially if you have to master a new technique.

I think the first ranking (Beginner) should be known as Guitar Rookie.

In the future, collaborations could also be done according to the different rankings. A bonus for the instructors as they will know your playing abilities.

Anyway, I'm ready for any endorsement program .... just as long as it happens soon.


I like this suggestion as well smile.gif


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Mandos
post Jan 25 2009, 08:33 AM
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I really like your suggestion Col Roberts. smile.gif


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Alex Lewis
post Jan 25 2009, 09:53 AM
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This could work really well if you put a new tab under a lesson entitled student versions (where comments on lessons etc go) then people could upload their version underneath the lesson itself and the relevant instructor /board could approve the student version for credit (i.e experience and level) or make suggestions for improvement etc, then the instructor could update the relevant students level somehow on their profile.

Just an idea but I think it could work

Alex


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Canis
post Jan 25 2009, 10:09 AM
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QUOTE (Alex Lewis @ Jan 25 2009, 09:53 AM) *
This could work really well if you put a new tab under a lesson entitled student versions (where comments on lessons etc go) then people could upload their version underneath the lesson itself and the relevant instructor /board could approve the student version for credit (i.e experience and level) or make suggestions for improvement etc, then the instructor could update the relevant students level somehow on their profile.

Just an idea but I think it could work

Alex

We have such a tab, only called "Community". Students can post their youtube version of the lesson there. wink.gif


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Jakub Luptovec
post Jan 25 2009, 10:35 AM
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First of all, I think we should divide the categories, that are to be rated. For this post, lets call them difficulty and quantity.

in terms of difficulty - how promotions (on higher level) should be done (Sort of like Lineage 2 biggrin.gif):

- each month there will be (say) 4 different lessons (4 for each category..), you will have to complete (say) 3 of them, so you wont have to make one of them. If succesfuly completed, your title would be updated

And for all of the lessons:

- there would have been some "board of judges" - for sake of this post - with 10 members. For each your video, to be recognized as succesfuly completed, you would have to have 8 thumbs up out of 10.


Btw. what about playing just some part of some lessons? Was anyone thinking about that? Bcos I tend to rather learn just a few licks here and there. I cant really remember when I finished some whole lesson:P

This post has been edited by Jakub Luptovec: Jan 25 2009, 10:36 AM


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wrk
post Jan 25 2009, 11:48 AM
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This is really an brilliant idea !!

This program could follow different directions and i think it is depending mainly on the scoring system.
GMC is a lot about fun and motivation. A easy scoring system could add some extra motivation to practice a bit harder and to finish some more lessons. A more detailed system could grow to a really good feedback tool on the other hand.

The initial idea to use the difficulty level and the number of lessons is already a good start, but i see some problems using only these values. It is hard to define, when a lesson is succeeded or not. Two members can play the same lesson with all notes correct, but there is a huge musically difference.

We all tend to approach lessons which are beyond and sometimes way beyond our current level. Which is of course a good thing, but to play some faster or difficult parts sloppy shouldn't be too much rewarded in my opinion. Lessons with lower difficulty level can be quite challenging, if someone is working on some musical aspects, which should not be valued too low as well. The goal should not become to take down as much lessons as possible or to approach constantly lessons which are too difficult.

David's idea to integrate somehow timing, cleanness and feel as part of the scoring system would add some great value. At the end this is what classifies different levels the best. Maybe creativity and personality could be interesting as well.

  1. timing and cleanness : are values which easily can be rated
  2. feel : is maybe a subjective value, but a lesson can be played perfectly clean and in time, but musically empty or the other way around. I think a instructors is able to rate this(?)
  3. creativity : There are lessons, with the goal to develop your own ideas, improvisations or melody lines and it should be valued somehow, if someone modifies a lesson with another creative idea.
  4. personality : some members (on all levels) are quickly identified after playing just a few notes. I'm not sure if personality is the right word, but every musician should try to archive to find his own "voice".

(To separate "personality" from "feel", feel could be defined as played adapted to the song/style/..)

David's 20 points per category idea (5*20 - > 100 points = 100%) provides a fine grid and keeps different skills well balanced. To apply the percentage of these points on the level of difficulty, equalizes lessons to each other quite well i think.

The naming system could be done by defining different ranges of collected points.

One question to be answered for every system is, how to deal with different takes of the same lesson (?). If some gets a certain number of points in the first take, it should be possible to use the feedback and to continue to practice on it and push this lesson further over time.
Somehow it's necessary to keep track of this and updated the points without too much admin work.

To sum it up: In my opinion, musical achievements should be rewarded more or at least similar to technical skills, as this is what it's all about when playing guitar.

This post has been edited by wrk: Jan 25 2009, 11:52 AM


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29a
post Jan 25 2009, 01:51 PM
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Is it just me or does the average seem to be the wrong measure?
If I start out doing Level 1 Lessons, and then finally end up at level 10.
Then at the end, I'll have an average level of 5.0. And I'll never be able to
get the level to 10.0. I guess it's very hard to describe someones overall skill
in terms of numbers.

But I've actually built something similar for myself. It's a little script that analyzes
my playing accuracy. But that's only helpful for learning how to play like a robot.
rolleyes.gif

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Sensible Jones
post Jan 25 2009, 02:28 PM
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What a brilliant idea!!!
With this kind of grading system I should be able to progress beyond "Bedroom Plank Spanker"!!!!
biggrin.gif


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David Wallimann
post Jan 25 2009, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE (wrk @ Jan 25 2009, 05:48 AM) *
One question to be answered for every system is, how to deal with different takes of the same lesson (?). If some gets a certain number of points in the first take, it should be possible to use the feedback and to continue to practice on it and push this lesson further over time.
Somehow it's necessary to keep track of this and updated the points without too much admin work.



I agree, but I think that if a student makes another take, it should be over rule the previous rating.
Either that, or we keep only the highest score from all the takes.
I don't think it would be a good idea to enable someone to score 10 80's for the same lesson...


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wrk
post Jan 25 2009, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE (David Wallimann @ Jan 25 2009, 02:44 PM) *
I agree, but I think that if a student makes another take, it should be over rule the previous rating.
Either that, or we keep only the highest score from all the takes.
I don't think it would be a good idea to enable someone to score 10 80's for the same lesson...


Of course .. One lesson only counts one time!! Over rule the previous take or keep highest, both is possible i guess.
Maybe to keep track of this is too complicated for a first version of this program. Thinking some steps in front, this could add a lot educational value.




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Marek Rojewski
post Jan 25 2009, 03:34 PM
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Well I think the rule should be "grant points for certain lesson only once, if the player provides a better take on the lesson, replace the grade from the previous take with a grade for the better one".

I keep track of the topic, can't really dress my thoughts in words, but what I know is that: don't make it to complicated, simplicity is required ( at least for the beginning ).


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Jakub Luptovec
post Jan 25 2009, 05:57 PM
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Theoreticaly, some easily setupable database could solve those problems. Everyone participated in this program would have his own entry in the database, and everythime the judges would vote, the votes will be updated in the dat abase and, if needed, his title changed.

Shouldnt be too hard to create IMO smile.gif - not that I would be able but.. wink.gif



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Col Roberts
post Jan 26 2009, 02:31 AM
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QUOTE (wrk @ Jan 25 2009, 09:48 PM) *
One question to be answered for every system is, how to deal with different takes of the same lesson (?). If some gets a certain number of points in the first take, it should be possible to use the feedback and to continue to practice on it and push this lesson further over time.


Perhaps, a fixed number of points could be given for the satisfactory completion of a lesson (as judged by the panel), and bonus points given for feel, creativity etc. I don't think that feel, phrasing and creativity should come into the equation until you have at least passed the beginner level.

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wrk
post Jan 26 2009, 10:17 AM
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QUOTE (Col Roberts @ Jan 26 2009, 02:31 AM) *
Perhaps, a fixed number of points could be given for the satisfactory completion of a lesson (as judged by the panel), and bonus points given for feel, creativity etc. I don't think that feel, phrasing and creativity should come into the equation until you have at least passed the beginner level.

This could be a good idea, to add feel or musical interpretation as bonus points! Do you have an idea, how a point system could work for this?

What i liked about David's idea, is to have values on what a panel of judges can rate the satisfactory level of lessons. Timing and cleanness defines well technical skills i think, maybe there are other or better values(?).

For example the GMC competitions. It was sometimes hard to choose between two entries. One was played more clean and in time, another one was a bit more rushed and sloppy, but with more feel imo. Hard to say which take deserves more points. Beginners need of course a few more years to reach higher technical rates, but it is often impressive what they already do on the guitar from the musical point of view, which should be rewarded as well.

This approach goes more in the direction of a "GMC University" and it is maybe not the goal to make it too serious. More and more members are saying in collaborations they want honest feedback and it could become a good tool for this. A more fun approach to earn titles can add a lot of motivation of course as well.

Maybe a poll can help to evaluate what members expect from this program (?)




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Chris Evans
post Jan 26 2009, 11:20 AM
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QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Jan 25 2009, 02:34 PM) *
I keep track of the topic, can't really dress my thoughts in words, but what I know is that: don't make it to complicated, simplicity is required ( at least for the beginning ).


yes I agree, reading through I think there are some great ideas, but to start something like this off initially it needs to be simple, generally that way things can be tweaked or added and it gives the whole idea a chance to establish, rather than being far too involved and people getting confused over different aspects of the guide.

Picking up on one of Jacobs points about "part" lessons, I dont believe this would work in, I think it adds a complicated twist to any scoring/judging procedure, but also I think that this should really motivate to "complete" whole lessons.

I like Davids system a lot, initially when Kris, Andrew and I chatted I suggested a "pass" mark.
just for example: a Panel of 4 judges that mark a video from 0-5, a maximum score of 20 can be achieved with a "Pass" being granted at maybe 15 points (just for example), with Davids additional content points it will give a better indication of how the mark was achieved and areas of improvement needed to "up" the grade.

Great ideas being bounced around though, the threads been a good read smile.gif

This post has been edited by Smells: Jan 26 2009, 11:21 AM


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David Wallimann
post Jan 26 2009, 12:54 PM
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Or we could also simplify the whole thing...
After uploading a lesson, the student clicks a button to roll a dice that gives him his final score...
mellow.gif


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Col Roberts
post Jan 26 2009, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (wrk @ Jan 26 2009, 08:17 PM) *
This could be a good idea, to add feel or musical interpretation as bonus points! Do you have an idea, how a point system could work for this?


No, I haven't given it any thought. I might wait for Andrew, Kris and Smells to come up with their thoughts on the process.

There are many great ideas in the thread, and I agree that the system should be kept fairly simple.

Perhaps there should be more levels (10?) so that it takes fewer completed lessons, or points, to get from one level to another.

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