2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> No Latency Jam Across The Globe..., Phone jam
David Wallimann
post Jan 30 2009, 12:54 PM
Post #1


Instructor
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.565
Joined: 29-March 07
From: Fort Collins, CO
Member No.: 1.439



My band Glass Hammer has always had trouble with rehearsals. Our drummer and singer live about 200 miles away and we've been trying to find a way to rehearse from home via internet.

I read about the Phone jam unit this morning. It really makes sense and looks great.

Anyone tried it? What are your thoughts?
Can anyone think of any other alternatives?


--------------------
www.youtube.com/Wallimann
www.davidwallimann.com
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Chris Evans
post Jan 30 2009, 01:05 PM
Post #2


Learning Tone Guru - Community Coordinator & Moderator
Group Icon

Group: GMC Senior
Posts: 6.319
Joined: 24-September 07
From: Sittingbourne, UK
Member No.: 2.860



interesting, never tried anything like this before


--------------------
Show us what part of the world you live in and get yourself
ON THE GMC:er Location MAP
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Toni Suominen
post Jan 30 2009, 01:10 PM
Post #3


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 3.038
Joined: 2-December 07
From: Rauma, Finland
Member No.: 3.434



Seems interesting, but the price is quite steep ohmy.gif


--------------------
Gear:
-PRS Custom 22
-Edwards Les Paul
-PodXT
-Ibanez Acoustic


Check out my lessons and my instructor profile!

My Youtube channel

My Last.FM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
29a
post Jan 30 2009, 02:24 PM
Post #4


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 356
Joined: 28-December 08
Member No.: 6.464



No Latency Across the Globe is impossible with current technology. It would according to the theory of realtivity mean that information does travel backward in time. Which is not possible right now wink.gif Also the bandwith of phone lines is horrible.

- Jonas

This post has been edited by 29a: Jan 30 2009, 02:35 PM


--------------------
My Website | My Gear | Elixir Nanoweb Strings Review | Installing Schaller Security Locks
"If privacy is outlawed, only outlaws will have privacy." - Phil Zimmermann
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
enforcer
post Jan 30 2009, 02:37 PM
Post #5


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: Student Instructor
Posts: 1.202
Joined: 23-September 08
From: Istanbul
Member No.: 5.945



Maybe it has some kind of delay compensation technology... I dunno.


--------------------


incoming spoiler read it at your own risk!


Spoiler:


Vigier G.V Wood HH
American Stratocaster Maple Standart with X2N bridge pickups
Samwick Artist custom modified Baswood Lespaul with S.Duncan JB and N56 pickups
Self made Fretless Strat type made of Rosewood/Maple with self wound Neck and Ibanez V8 Bridge Pickups
Floor Pod 2.0 Amp Simulation System
Pod Xt Pro Rack Amp Simulation System
Digitech TSR 12 Rack Effect and Studio Reverb
Behringer Composer Rack Compressor Expander
Morley Bad Horsie Wah Pedal
Behringer FB1010 Floor Board



it, surely, spoiled me!!!


and may the force be with you :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kaznie_NL
post Jan 30 2009, 03:01 PM
Post #6


Experienced Tone Seeker
*

Group: Passive
Posts: 4.809
Joined: 8-December 07
From: Hedel, Netherlands
Member No.: 3.471



I sometimes play with my toneport over msn, but I'm not sure about the latency tongue.gif


--------------------
My YouTube Channel Here

My Rec Takes Here


--- GEAR ---
Ibanez SA08LTD2 BAR
Vox AD50VT
Pod Farm
Line 6 Pod Studio GX
El Cheapo Strat
Dunlop Slide
Korg Toneworks AX5G
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sigfridsson
post Jan 30 2009, 03:01 PM
Post #7


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 99
Joined: 28-October 08
From: Milan, Italy
Member No.: 6.142



If it actually works well I think it could be a good solution.
As for the bandwidth etc, I doubt that will be an issue I mean it's all just about being able to hear each other and practice!

Only real concern I had when I first read it was the delay!


--------------------
Guitars: ESP Eclipse I CTM Full Thickness, Ibanez RG470 with EMG81/85 pickups.
Amp: Vox Valvetronix AD50VT XL
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
29a
post Jan 30 2009, 03:56 PM
Post #8


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 356
Joined: 28-December 08
Member No.: 6.464



QUOTE (enforcer @ Jan 30 2009, 02:37 PM) *
Maybe it has some kind of delay compensation technology... I dunno.
To compensate that delay would mean to predict the future wink.gif Which is what computer games do, and it works quite nice for them. But I don't think it would work for music at all.

Sigfridsson, try to listen to music through a telephone it sounds like crap. Normal analog phone lines transmit 300 Hz-3,4 kHz. Which means when you play a low E on your guitar you'll only hear the overtones. wink.gif But maybe the device compensates for that somehow. blink.gif

- Jonas


--------------------
My Website | My Gear | Elixir Nanoweb Strings Review | Installing Schaller Security Locks
"If privacy is outlawed, only outlaws will have privacy." - Phil Zimmermann
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bogdan Radovic
post Jan 30 2009, 04:21 PM
Post #9


Bass & Beginner Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 15.612
Joined: 30-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.410



I never heard about this Phone Jam but it would make a revolution if it works smile.gif


--------------------
For GMC support please email support (at) guitarmasterclass.net
Check out my lessons and my instructor board.
Check out my beginner guitar lessons course! ; Take a bass course now!
My solo and band songs : Keep Going On, Night Vibe, Kad Te Vidim, Susret, Plava Silueta
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
utak3r
post Jan 30 2009, 08:27 PM
Post #10


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 553
Joined: 3-January 09
From: Szczecin, Poland
Member No.: 6.530



QUOTE (29a @ Jan 30 2009, 03:56 PM) *
To compensate that delay would mean to predict the future wink.gif


No. I can think of a metode for that easily (I am a software developer).

QUOTE (29a @ Jan 30 2009, 03:56 PM) *
Sigfridsson, try to listen to music through a telephone it sounds like crap. Normal analog phone lines transmit 300 Hz-3,4 kHz. Which means when you play a low E on your guitar you'll only hear the overtones. wink.gif But maybe the device compensates for that somehow. blink.gif


I don't think we're talking about analog phones. We're in XXI century, remember? tongue.gif

All in all, never did any research on this theme, but I believe there's a way to do that.


--------------------
sooner or later... you will meet the undertaker...
utak3r.pl
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Jan 31 2009, 06:29 PM
Post #11


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



I'll definitely check it out, thanks for sharing David.


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
29a
post Jan 31 2009, 07:11 PM
Post #12


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 356
Joined: 28-December 08
Member No.: 6.464



QUOTE (utak3r @ Jan 30 2009, 08:27 PM) *
No. I can think of a metode for that easily (I am a software developer).
Explain please, I'd be very interested in that.

QUOTE (utak3r @ Jan 30 2009, 08:27 PM) *
I don't think we're talking about analog phones. We're in XXI century, remember? tongue.gif
All in all, never did any research on this theme, but I believe there's a way to do that.
The mentioned product works with those 20th century phonelines.


--------------------
My Website | My Gear | Elixir Nanoweb Strings Review | Installing Schaller Security Locks
"If privacy is outlawed, only outlaws will have privacy." - Phil Zimmermann
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
utak3r
post Jan 31 2009, 07:32 PM
Post #13


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 553
Joined: 3-January 09
From: Szczecin, Poland
Member No.: 6.530



QUOTE (29a @ Jan 31 2009, 07:11 PM) *
Explain please, I'd be very interested in that.


First thing: I do not know anything about this product, I'll just tell what could have been done to solve all those issues.

First - the matter of a sound. You can encode it digitally and decode it on the other side - this way you're done with a frequency (non)responsiveness of the regular phone line. The other thing is you could use ISDN lines...

Then - my quick, one-minute-of-thinking idea of resolving the latency issue....
Let's assume all the participants have our product. They setup a conferency call and assign one of them as a master side. Every station sends a ping signal and measure the returning time - half of this would be a traveling time. The master one can receive all the signals from slaves and compute the final sound, knowing the latencies of each of them.

You see? If you sit and start thinking seriously about it, it can be done, just a matter of some experiments and tries....

If I had some more spare time, I could try to devlope something like this... but not this month, that's for sure, I'm busy as hell.... rolleyes.gif


--------------------
sooner or later... you will meet the undertaker...
utak3r.pl
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Emir Hot
post Jan 31 2009, 07:46 PM
Post #14


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 7.201
Joined: 14-July 08
From: London UK
Member No.: 5.490



There is a manual on their website and they are explaining a bit of how it works.

I have seen it done via ISDN lines. I saw a DVD of a Croatian band doing a live show in 3 different cities at the same time. Some members were playing in one city, some in the other... They all had the audience in each city and the rest of the band on big screens arround them but they all play at the same time at different places. There was no latency and the sound transmited was CD quality. I read an article written by the sound engineer who did it. So definitely it can be done.


--------------------
Check out my <a href="https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/instructor/Emir-Hot" target="_blank">Instructor profile</a>

www.emirhot.com
www.myspace.com/emirhotguitar
www.myspace.com/sevdahmetal
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
29a
post Jan 31 2009, 10:18 PM
Post #15


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 356
Joined: 28-December 08
Member No.: 6.464



QUOTE
First - the matter of a sound. You can encode it digitally and decode it on the other side - this way you're done with a frequency (non)responsiveness of the regular phone line. The other thing is you could use ISDN lines...
I think the maximum bandwidth you can get out of an analog line is something like 56k. At least that was true for modems. Now how would you transmit CD quality audio using 56kbit?

QUOTE ( @ Jan 31 2009, 07:32 PM) *
Then - my quick, one-minute-of-thinking idea of resolving the latency issue....
Let's assume all the participants have our product. They setup a conferency call and assign one of them as a master side. Every station sends a ping signal and measure the returning time - half of this would be a traveling time. The master one can receive all the signals from slaves and compute the final sound, knowing the latencies of each of them.
Ok, then you've got a synchronized version of what they played at the master. But each participant would hear the sound of his playing after $heighest_latency+$own_latency. Now in reality you would have to add some buffer because packets can be late or get lost. That would increase the latency even more. I guess you would end up with something like 250-500ms between Europe and the USA. So in the end you would hear synchronized audio ... after half a second. Now I'm sure there are people that could play like this. But I think it wouldn't be pleasant.

Emir Hot,
Two things about this, the latency between two Croatian cities can be lower then the latency between two points across the globe. The distances between those cities were probably pretty short - measured on a global scale. Regarding the quality, cd quality would only be possible using multiple ISDN lines. I guess they just used a metronome / click track which they synchronized and didn't hear each other in realtime. And then the audio was just synchronized and played back over the PA.

- Jonas

This post has been edited by 29a: Jan 31 2009, 10:18 PM


--------------------
My Website | My Gear | Elixir Nanoweb Strings Review | Installing Schaller Security Locks
"If privacy is outlawed, only outlaws will have privacy." - Phil Zimmermann
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
utak3r
post Jan 31 2009, 10:47 PM
Post #16


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 553
Joined: 3-January 09
From: Szczecin, Poland
Member No.: 6.530



QUOTE (29a @ Jan 31 2009, 10:18 PM) *
I think the maximum bandwidth you can get out of an analog line is something like 56k. At least that was true for modems. Now how would you transmit CD quality audio using 56kbit?


I've already said it earlier... have you ever heard of various codecs? 56kbps is enough when using proper codecs.

I won't go further with this talk, 'cause I should sit down and think about it more then - and I don't have time for this... just remember - there're no impossible things, it's just it's not yet developed. And according to Emir it's already done... latency between various cities is enough to have a good example.


--------------------
sooner or later... you will meet the undertaker...
utak3r.pl
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
29a
post Jan 31 2009, 11:06 PM
Post #17


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 356
Joined: 28-December 08
Member No.: 6.464



QUOTE (utak3r @ Jan 31 2009, 10:47 PM) *
I've already said it earlier... have you ever heard of various codecs? 56kbps is enough when using proper codecs.
I sure do. But I don't know any codec which results in reasonable quality at that bitrate for anything but speech. But I'd be sure interested to hear about that.

QUOTE (utak3r @ Jan 31 2009, 10:47 PM) *
I won't go further with this talk, 'cause I should sit down and think about it more then - and I don't have time for this... just remember - there're no impossible things, it's just it's not yet developed. And according to Emir it's already done... latency between various cities is enough to have a good example.
That's why I said with current technology. Who knows what quantum physics will bring us blink.gif

- Jonas


--------------------
My Website | My Gear | Elixir Nanoweb Strings Review | Installing Schaller Security Locks
"If privacy is outlawed, only outlaws will have privacy." - Phil Zimmermann
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Jan 31 2009, 11:57 PM
Post #18


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



The way IP protocol is made it doesn't support modern multimedia real time communications. So jammin over the internet is pretty hard to achieve. Even high bandwith connections all share the same routers in the network after the ISP, so if the router is overloaded with packets, packers will be dropped and latency will occur. This problem is solving slowly with additional protocols for multimedia, and IP packet classes, but until IP protocol is changed entirely, this is very hard thing to achieve, specially on the global scale.


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Emir Hot
post Feb 1 2009, 08:51 AM
Post #19


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 7.201
Joined: 14-July 08
From: London UK
Member No.: 5.490



QUOTE (29a @ Jan 31 2009, 09:18 PM) *
Emir Hot,
Two things about this, the latency between two Croatian cities can be lower then the latency between two points across the globe. The distances between those cities were probably pretty short - measured on a global scale. Regarding the quality, cd quality would only be possible using multiple ISDN lines. I guess they just used a metronome / click track which they synchronized and didn't hear each other in realtime. And then the audio was just synchronized and played back over the PA.

- Jonas


Of course they heard each other. I said they all played in front of audience and everybody heard everybody. Yes they were using ISDN lines and distance between cities was like 300 KM which is not that much.


--------------------
Check out my <a href="https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/instructor/Emir-Hot" target="_blank">Instructor profile</a>

www.emirhot.com
www.myspace.com/emirhotguitar
www.myspace.com/sevdahmetal
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Marcus Siepen
post Feb 1 2009, 01:00 PM
Post #20


Instructor (Blind Guardian)
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 3.433
Joined: 5-March 08
From: Germany
Member No.: 4.464



It somehow sounds too good to be true to me, but since I have no experience with something like this I can't really judge if it works or not.


--------------------
Guitars: various Gibson Les Pauls / Gibson J 45
Amps: Mesa Boogie Tripple Rectifier / Triaxis / 2:90 Poweramp / Rectocabs
Effects: Rocktron Intellifex / Rocktron Xpression
Homepage: www.marcussiepen.com www.blind-guardian.com
Check out my video lessons!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 27th March 2017 - 01:47 PM