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> Chordprogressions Out Of Scale
Frederik
post Feb 5 2009, 12:13 PM
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i have now severel times experienced chordprogressions that are out of scale or non-diatonic. fx. the subdominant sounds great in minor. what is the theory behind this (and other out of scale chords). and how can i make my own, more advanced, chordproggressions.

-frederik
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Zynex
post Feb 5 2009, 01:23 PM
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I don't exactly know if I understand it right but... Do you mean playing a chord progression wich contains chords that are not in the root note's scale?

If that is what you mean, the only thing I can say about this is that a chord progression can have more than 1 root note. Jazz and fusion have this alot. I often write music for my band that contains 2 root notes, cause I think it sounds awesome biggrin.gif.

If this is not what you mean, then I appologize haha. Im not exactly a theory freak cool.gif


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Emir Hot
post Feb 5 2009, 01:46 PM
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Every chord has one or more sacle/arpeggio that works. This now depends on many things. If you write down the progression and the tonal center (key) the I might be able to suggest some scales. Pedja is great with these things I hope he can reply with more detailed explaination.


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Muris Varajic
post Feb 5 2009, 01:56 PM
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Subdominant chord in pure minor key is minor chord,
if you play major chord instead you'll get Dorian mode.
Church modes are pretty nice to start with regarding out of scale chords.
Per example, there are 3 modes with minor key on toor,
Aeolian, Dorian and Phrygian.
Lets say A Aeolian( natural minor) is your real root.
You play few chords from it like Am, F, Dm and Em.
Then you add flavor of A Dorian which is D chord, major subdominant.
You go back to Am and now for Phrygian flavor, that would be Bb chord
since A Phrygian has Bb note as second degree and there is major chord, Bb chord.
After that you go back to Am and finish pattern with pure Am key chords,add F and G per example.

There are many ways, depends how deep you wanna go. smile.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Feb 5 2009, 02:56 PM
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I am glad you had some experiences with non diatonic chord progressions.

Here is couple of things you can use as HINT when changing keys :

1) Whenever you change key use DOMINANT CHORD to get to your I chord (or modal interchange chord).

Lets take an example
I am in key of C , I am playing around C D min E min G7 etc type chord progression. Lets say I want to modulate to A major now (down a minor 3rd or up a major 6th interval inversion), I should use E7 (dominant 7th) chord to approach my new I chord which is A major !

Ok so this is pretty common trick used a lot in the classical music as well wink.gif

Another example of this is same key change (from C to A major) but lets say I dont want A Ionian but rather F# Aeolian sound ! So in this case my Dominant 7th chord would be C#7 resolving to F# min7. Later during couple of chords, things will be much clearer to listener as you establish some sort of Aeolian cadence.


So thats the main trick - using dominant chord of your target key (or mode) to approach the new key.
Thats called PREPARED MODULATION .

Unprepared modulation is opposite and I did that in my last Fusion Collaboration. I went from A minor to C minor to F# minor. None of these chords have DOMINANT 7 chord approach new key (which could be any minor type of key or mode wink.gif but rather have DIRECT modulation into harmony.

The reason why this works and why I applied it is because : a) I use same type of chord sound cool.gif I used same chord voicings
This concept in music is called CONSTANT STRUCTURE. When you move chords that have same chord quality and voicing around - thats called constant structure smile.gif


Ok I can write you billion more tricks like this but I think for time being this is enough.
I will talk a lot about this on my board soon I hope smile.gif

Hope this was useful to you !

P.S. Muris gave you great tip with MODAL HARMONY and how to combine modes from same root. This concept in music is called MODAL INTERCHANGE when you basically take same ROOT and borrow from that root chords from different modes starting from that root ( A dorian , A phrygian , A aeolian , A lydian for example and you combine it all in one chord progression smile.gif Very fun stuff to do wink.gif


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Vasilije Vukmiro...
post Feb 5 2009, 03:43 PM
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Cool thing that I learned is that the last chord in the chord progression is the weakest(usually) so you can play almost anything. Like blues progression. On the last chord you can play whole-tone scale, diminished scale, chromatic scale...You can stay in the same key(A minor lets say) or go to F melodic minor for example....I mean it's the weakest chord, so you can get away with anything, it is good to experiment a little.


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Frederik
post Feb 5 2009, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Zynex @ Feb 5 2009, 01:23 PM) *
If that is what you mean, the only thing I can say about this is that a chord progression can have more than 1 root note. Jazz and fusion have this alot. I often write music for my band that contains 2 root notes, cause I think it sounds awesome biggrin.gif.


I might give that a try tongue.gif correct me if im wrong, but u are talking about a modulation somewhere and not mixing to keys in the same time, right? im not sure, but wouldnt it sound a bit messed up?
no need 2 apologize wink.gif all these answers has contributed ALOT to my knowledge and inspired me biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Feb 5 2009, 01:46 PM) *
Every chord has one or more sacle/arpeggio that works. This now depends on many things. If you write down the progression and the tonal center (key) the I might be able to suggest some scales. Pedja is great with these things I hope he can reply with more detailed explaination.


y wink.gif got that thing, which scales fit each chord (the chords should be contained in the given scale)

QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Feb 5 2009, 01:56 PM) *
Lets say A Aeolian( natural minor) is your real root.
You play few chords from it like Am, F, Dm and Em.
Then you add flavor of A Dorian which is D chord, major subdominant.
You go back to Am and now for Phrygian flavor, that would be Bb chord
since A Phrygian has Bb note as second degree and there is major chord, Bb chord.
After that you go back to Am and finish pattern with pure Am key chords,add F and G per example.

There are many ways, depends how deep you wanna go. smile.gif


That with the flavours was exactly what i was after wink.gif up until now, i've just randomly switched major and minor 3ths and so on.

QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Feb 5 2009, 02:56 PM) *
I am glad you had some experiences with non diatonic chord progressions.

Here is couple of things you can use as HINT when changing keys :

1) Whenever you change key use DOMINANT CHORD to get to your I chord (or modal interchange chord).

Lets take an example
I am in key of C , I am playing around C D min E min G7 etc type chord progression. Lets say I want to modulate to A major now (down a minor 3rd or up a major 6th interval inversion), I should use E7 (dominant 7th) chord to approach my new I chord which is A major !

Ok so this is pretty common trick used a lot in the classical music as well wink.gif

Another example of this is same key change (from C to A major) but lets say I dont want A Ionian but rather F# Aeolian sound ! So in this case my Dominant 7th chord would be C#7 resolving to F# min7. Later during couple of chords, things will be much clearer to listener as you establish some sort of Aeolian cadence.


So thats the main trick - using dominant chord of your target key (or mode) to approach the new key.
Thats called PREPARED MODULATION .

Unprepared modulation is opposite and I did that in my last Fusion Collaboration. I went from A minor to C minor to F# minor. None of these chords have DOMINANT 7 chord approach new key (which could be any minor type of key or mode wink.gif but rather have DIRECT modulation into harmony.

The reason why this works and why I applied it is because : a) I use same type of chord sound cool.gif I used same chord voicings
This concept in music is called CONSTANT STRUCTURE. When you move chords that have same chord quality and voicing around - thats called constant structure smile.gif


Ok I can write you billion more tricks like this but I think for time being this is enough.
I will talk a lot about this on my board soon I hope smile.gif

Hope this was useful to you !

P.S. Muris gave you great tip with MODAL HARMONY and how to combine modes from same root. This concept in music is called MODAL INTERCHANGE when you basically take same ROOT and borrow from that root chords from different modes starting from that root ( A dorian , A phrygian , A aeolian , A lydian for example and you combine it all in one chord progression smile.gif Very fun stuff to do wink.gif

DUDE ! tongue.gif this is the best ! i've searched everywhere for this. i need to learn all these sorts of tricks, im especially gonna practise That Prepared modulation, really like the idea of giving a hint, that u are gonna change, my ear havent grow accustomed to those rapid key-changes, it just sounds to random and messy. BTW its very well explained, ireally get it

tongue.gif ty

QUOTE (Vasilije Vukmirovic @ Feb 5 2009, 03:43 PM) *
Cool thing that I learned is that the last chord in the chord progression is the weakest(usually) so you can play almost anything. Like blues progression. On the last chord you can play whole-tone scale, diminished scale, chromatic scale...You can stay in the same key(A minor lets say) or go to F melodic minor for example....I mean it's the weakest chord, so you can get away with anything, it is good to experiment a little.


sounds interesting tongue.gif im still not able to apply all this theory to my lead (im to lazy to learn all those positions, but its getting there, its only been 2 years with the guitar smile.gif). I might use it on my piano

ty all for those comprehensive replies tongue.gif
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Pedja Simovic
post Feb 5 2009, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Frederik @ Feb 5 2009, 06:56 PM) *
DUDE ! tongue.gif this is the best ! i've searched everywhere for this. i need to learn all these sorts of tricks, im especially gonna practise That Prepared modulation, really like the idea of giving a hint, that u are gonna change, my ear havent grow accustomed to those rapid key-changes, it just sounds to random and messy. BTW its very well explained, ireally get it

tongue.gif ty


Great ! biggrin.gif

Glad you found it useful. I will give you some more things in future but for time being get started on prepared modulation !

Thanks smile.gif


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