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Becks
post Feb 18 2009, 04:26 AM
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I know how to figure out the chords in a major key. You write out the scale place the sharps where appropriate then use the formula Major, Minor, Minor, Major, Major, Minor, Diminished. Just to use an example i will use C.

C = C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, B diminished

But what would the chords be if the Key was C#? Is there also a set formula?
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lcsdds
post Feb 18 2009, 04:31 AM
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QUOTE (Becks @ Feb 18 2009, 04:26 AM) *
I know how to figure out the chords in a major key. You write out the scale place the sharps where appropriate then use the formula Major, Minor, Minor, Major, Major, Minor, Diminished. Just to use an example i will use C.

C = C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, B diminished

But what would the chords be if the Key was C#? Is there also a set formula?

That formula applies to ALL keys. For C# Major everything just gets moved up a semitone. smile.gif
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Ramiro Delforte
post Feb 18 2009, 04:35 AM
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That's right biggrin.gif

C# major would be

C# - D#m- E#m- F#- G#- A#m- B#dim.

But I don't understand the title of the topic "Chords in minor keys"

In a minor key would be the same starting on the VI degree

Am would be

Am- Bdim- C- Dm- Em- F- G- Am

But as you might know the minor keys uses sometimes the Harmonic minor or most of the time the Melodic minor that turns the IV and V degree into major chords so the cadences are more "strong".

Let me know if this helped you biggrin.gif


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sigma7
post Feb 18 2009, 04:47 AM
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Hmm, this whole chord scale music theory is tough to grasp haha


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Becks
post Feb 18 2009, 05:02 AM
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QUOTE (Ramiro Delforte @ Feb 17 2009, 07:35 PM) *
That's right biggrin.gif

C# major would be

C# - D#m- E#m- F#- G#- A#m- B#dim.

But I don't understand the title of the topic "Chords in minor keys"

In a minor key would be the same starting on the VI degree

Am would be

Am- Bdim- C- Dm- Em- F- G- Am

But as you might know the minor keys uses sometimes the Harmonic minor or most of the time the Melodic minor that turns the IV and V degree into major chords so the cadences are more "strong".

Let me know if this helped you biggrin.gif



I realized after that the title did not make sense. lol
okay that makes sense. I am new to this whole theory thing. There is sooo much to learn sad.gif and at times its rather confusing. But thanks for the help!

one more thing. Would the formula for a minor key be minor, diminished, major, minor, minor, major, major, minor?
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lcsdds
post Feb 18 2009, 05:06 AM
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QUOTE (Becks @ Feb 18 2009, 05:02 AM) *
I realized after that the title did not make sense. lol
okay that makes sense. I am new to this whole theory thing. There is sooo much to learn sad.gif and at times its rather confusing. But thanks for the help!

one more thing. Would the formula for a minor key be minor, diminished, major, minor, minor, major, major, minor?

Yes it would. Good job!! smile.gif
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Becks
post Feb 18 2009, 05:20 AM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Feb 17 2009, 08:06 PM) *
Yes it would. Good job!! smile.gif


Fantastic!!! thank you very much!! biggrin.gif





And Ramiro you used the example with Am, shouldn't there be some sharps in there?

This post has been edited by Becks: Feb 18 2009, 05:18 AM
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Ramiro Delforte
post Feb 18 2009, 05:36 AM
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Nop, Am is the relative minor of C major so it hasn't any sharps or flats

Here I leave you the link to the Wikipedia entry about the circle of fifths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

That would be really helpful to memorize and understand how the alterations takes place into any key.

This post has been edited by Ramiro Delforte: Feb 18 2009, 05:44 AM


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Becks
post Feb 18 2009, 05:46 AM
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QUOTE (Ramiro Delforte @ Feb 17 2009, 08:36 PM) *
Nop, Am is the relative minor of C major so it hasn't any sharps or flats

Here I leave you the link to the Wikipedia entry about the circle of fifths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

That would be really helpful to memorize and understand how the alterations takes place into any key.


So in a minor key how do you know which notes have sharps??
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Ramiro Delforte
post Feb 18 2009, 05:56 AM
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Well if you take a look to the circle of fifths you might notice that the C is in the center because it doesn't have any alterations.

If you go to the right of the circle you'll be adding alterations so

G major would have 1 sharp F# = Em is like G major starting from E
D major would have 2 sharps C# = Bm is like D major starting from B
A major would have 3 sharps G#= F#m is like A major starting from F#
E major would have 4 sharps D#= C#m is like C major starting from C#
B major would have 5 sharps A#= G#m is like B major starting from G#
F# major would have 6 sharps E#= D#m is like F# major starting from D#
C# major would have 7 sharps B#= A#m is like C# major starting from C#

The left part of the circle have the flatted keys

F major would have 1 flat Bb = Dm is like F major starting from D
Bb major would have 2 flats Eb = Gm is like Bb major starting from G
Eb major would have 3 flats Ab= Cm is like Eb major starting from C
Ab major would have 4 flats Db= Fm is like Ab major starting from F
Db major would have 5 flats Gb= Bbm is like Db major starting from Bb
Gb major would have 6 flats Cb= Ebm is like Gb major starting from Eb
Cb major would have 7 flats Fb= Abm is like Cb major starting from Ab

Let me know if this claryfies a little bit

All the major keys are related to minor keys and vicevesa. So you'll learn all the major keys and it's relation with the minor keys.
The need for other keys began with the begining of the tonality sistem. So the alterations are there to make the exact proportions of the major and minor scale, is an intervalic proportion.

Major: 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 (semitones talking)

Minor: 2 1 2 2 1 2 2

The alterations are there to make this proportions hapend, I'll give you an example

C major: C D E F G A B C

G major: G A B C D E F G (this scale is not G major because between the F- the seventh degree- and the G -the first degree- there isn't a semintone or half-step so I have to sharp the F in order to get the scale exactly like the C major)

G A B C D E F# G

Now it has the same proportions. The same happend with all the scales

This post has been edited by Ramiro Delforte: Feb 18 2009, 06:02 AM


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David Wallimann
post Feb 18 2009, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE (Becks @ Feb 17 2009, 10:26 PM) *
I know how to figure out the chords in a major key. You write out the scale place the sharps where appropriate then use the formula Major, Minor, Minor, Major, Major, Minor, Diminished. Just to use an example i will use C.

C = C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, B diminished

But what would the chords be if the Key was C#? Is there also a set formula?


Just wanted to add that the 7th degree (or chord) is really a half diminished chord.
If you are talking about 3 note chords, then it is called a diminished triad (Root, min3rd, dim5th) but with the 4 note chords it's only a half diminished:
Root, min3rd, dim5th, min7th

A diminished 4 note chord would have a diminished 7th instead of a minor 7th.



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Muris Varajic
post Feb 18 2009, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (David Wallimann @ Feb 18 2009, 03:20 PM) *
Just wanted to add that the 7th degree (or chord) is really a half diminished chord.
If you are talking about 3 note chords, then it is called a diminished triad (Root, min3rd, dim5th) but with the 4 note chords it's only a half diminished:
Root, min3rd, dim5th, min7th

A diminished 4 note chord would have a diminished 7th instead of a minor 7th.


I believe that diminished only is pretty fine name for diminished triad.
However there is a big difference between diminished and half diminished
when we talk about 7th chords.
I'm saying this because there is no half diminished triad
so unless you really forgot to add "7th" there's no chance for confuse,
and from what I see here Becks was talking about triads only. smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Feb 18 2009, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Feb 18 2009, 03:31 PM) *
I believe that diminished only is pretty fine name for diminished triad.
However there is a big difference between diminished and half diminished
when we talk about 7th chords.
I'm saying this because there is no half diminished triad
so unless you really forgot to add "7th" there's no chance for confuse,
and from what I see here Becks was talking about triads only. smile.gif


Well explained Muris smile.gif


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David Wallimann
post Feb 18 2009, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Feb 18 2009, 10:31 AM) *
I believe that diminished only is pretty fine name for diminished triad.
However there is a big difference between diminished and half diminished
when we talk about 7th chords.
I'm saying this because there is no half diminished triad
so unless you really forgot to add "7th" there's no chance for confuse,
and from what I see here Becks was talking about triads only. smile.gif


Exactly. :-)


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Ramiro Delforte
post Feb 18 2009, 06:53 PM
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I agree with Muris biggrin.gif
When I explained the topic the "triad" was tacit, so the diminished refers to the diminished triad. And that could also be thoutgh because I didn't add any seventh to the other chords.


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Becks
post Feb 18 2009, 11:54 PM
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Wow you guys have officially lost me... mellow.gif But thats okay one day i will know all this stuff!
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Pedja Simovic
post Feb 18 2009, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE (Becks @ Feb 18 2009, 11:54 PM) *
Wow you guys have officially lost me... mellow.gif But thats okay one day i will know all this stuff!


laugh.gif

Which part did you get lost on ?


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Becks
post Feb 19 2009, 12:17 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Feb 18 2009, 02:56 PM) *
laugh.gif

Which part did you get lost on ?


pretty much everything.... i stil am not 100% sure on how to figure out the chords in the minor keys. well i know how to get them but i dont know where to put sharps. And the triad thing they were talking about i dont even know what a triad is.
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DeepRoots
post Feb 19 2009, 12:52 AM
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QUOTE (Becks @ Feb 18 2009, 11:17 PM) *
pretty much everything.... i stil am not 100% sure on how to figure out the chords in the minor keys. well i know how to get them but i dont know where to put sharps. And the triad thing they were talking about i dont even know what a triad is.


Triad = 3 note chord

Where are the sharps? First you need to know the formula for a minor key is T S T T S T T (where T is a whole tone and S is a semi-tone)
Apply that formula to your key of choice- lets use F# : F# G# A B C# D E

From there- you need to know which type of chord lies on which degree of the scale, for a minor key that is:

Iminor IIdiminished IIImajor IVminor V minor VI major VII major

when we apply our scale notes to that we then get:

F#minor, G# diminished, A major, B minor, C# minor, D major, E major. Sorted!

Learning the circle of fifths like Ramiro explained will allow you to memorize this sort of thing so that you can know the notes in a key on the fly- there is an initial bit of work involved though wink.gif. Until then you can just work it out with the right formula (you'll want to remember the formula for which degree is which kind of chord in a scale though)

Hope that was of some help smile.gif
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Emir Hot
post Feb 19 2009, 01:01 AM
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QUOTE (Becks @ Feb 18 2009, 11:17 PM) *
pretty much everything.... i stil am not 100% sure on how to figure out the chords in the minor keys. well i know how to get them but i dont know where to put sharps. And the triad thing they were talking about i dont even know what a triad is.


Triad is the chord that has 3 notes, when you take 1st, 3rd and 5th note from the scale. If you take 1st, 3rd and 5th note from major scale you will get a major chord where the 1st note is the root. If you take the same formula from a Dorian scale you will get a minor chord, etc... Now if you add 7th on top of 1st, 3rd and 5th note then you get a seventh chord. In C major case it would be C maj 7 in C major scale. Moving on to the next mode (D Dorian) you will get D min 7. The whole C major scale haromized looks like this: Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5 and Cmaj7 again. Does this sounds more clear?

This post has been edited by Emir Hot: Feb 19 2009, 01:02 AM


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