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jer
post Feb 28 2009, 03:03 PM
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We're getting too far ahead. Its going to make this thread tough to follow. I'm backing up 7 questions to this:

QUOTE
Remember from my post that to find out what gives Lydian its characteristic sound we compare it to the Ionian scale. There was only one note difference and that was G#. So we try to EMPHASIZE those chords that contain G# in our chord progression. In D Ionian that would be G# dim, E major and C# min. In D Ionian you have E minor NOT E major.


These 2 statements sound contradictory.

In D Ionian that would be G# dim, E major and C# min.

In D Ionian you have E minor NOT E major.


Is one of those supposed to be Lydian?

QUOTE
1) What scales contain both a Dmaj triad and a C#min triad?


Dmaj would be D, F#, A (I have to write out the whole scale and erase the 2,4,6,7)
C#min would be C#, E, G#

A Ionian, B Dorian, C# Phrygian, D Lydian, E Mixolydian, F# Aeolian, & G# Locrian

QUOTE
2) What scales contain both a Dmaj triad and an Emaj triad?


Dmaj = D, F#, A,
Emaj = E, G#, B,

Same as last time... A Ionian, B Dorian, C# Phrygian, D Lydian, E Mixolydian, F# Aeolian, G# Locrian

QUOTE
I am wanting to solo over a D mixolydian chord progression. From reading the posts I did in the main thread can you answer the following questions please?

1) Is this a Major or Minor mode?


Major.

QUOTE
2) What is it's scale of comparison to figure out my chord options?


D Major? (kinda guessing since this is a new concept. "Scale Comparison") If the chord progression is Mixolydian though, don't you need the chords for D Mixolydian? Not D Ionian? If you said you wanted to do a Mixolydian solo over an Ionian progression I'd say Dmaj... But if its a Mixolydian chord progression I don't know why you'd use a scale of comparison.

QUOTE
3) What are my diatonic scale options for soloing over this?

Lets come back to this after we get through the above parts.

QUOTE
4) What are my pentatonic scale options for soloing over this?

Lets come back to this after we get through the above parts.

This post has been edited by jer: Feb 28 2009, 03:04 PM


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lcsdds
post Feb 28 2009, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE
These 2 statements sound contradictory.

In D Ionian that would be G# dim, E major and C# min.

In D Ionian you have E minor NOT E major.

Is one of those supposed to be Lydian?


You are right Jer, sorry for the typo. laugh.gif
D Lydian contains G#dim, E major and C#min.
See, you do understand!! smile.gif

QUOTE
1) What scales contain both a Dmaj triad and a E maj triad?


Use the chart I gave you in the post Jer. I gave it to you so you wouldn't have to write stuff out every time. Major triads only occur in the I, IV and V position. Go to your chart and find the Ionian position and then go down until you fin 'D' Then look across and see if there is an "E" in the IV or V position. Do the Same for the IV and V positions. USE THE CHART, I did the work so you wouldn't have to!! biggrin.gif

QUOTE
1) What scales contain both a Dmaj triad and a C#min triad?

Use the Chart Jer and see if you can find a D in the I, IV or V postion and a C# in the ii, ii, or vi postion in the same row. USE THE CHART!!! laugh.gif

This post has been edited by lcsdds: Feb 28 2009, 03:23 PM
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jer
post Feb 28 2009, 03:29 PM
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QUOTE
Use the chart I gave you in the post Jer. I gave it to you so you wouldn't have to write stuff out every time. Major triads only occur in the I, IV and V position. Go to your chart and find the Ionian position and then go down until you fin 'D' Then look across and see if there is an "E" in the IV or V position. Do the Same for the IV and V positions. USE THE CHART, I did the work so you wouldn't have to!!


Then I dont think I understand the chart.

For Dmaj triad (example) I need to know the notes of Dmaj. I could look at the chart for D Ionian and get them, but I feel I need to know them without a crutch. So Istart with D and go wwhwwwh and get the notes. Then to get the DMaj triad I keep the 1,3,5 and drop the rest.

THEN

I use the chart. I look for a D. Then once I find one I look for a F# 2 steps to the right. And if I find one I look for an A 2 steps to the right of that. If I find it all on the same line then we have a winner.

Were my answers correct?

This post has been edited by jer: Feb 28 2009, 03:29 PM


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lcsdds
post Feb 28 2009, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE
D Major? (kinda guessing since this is a new concept. "Scale Comparison") If the chord progression is Mixolydian though, don't you need the chords for D Mixolydian? Not D Ionian? If you said you wanted to do a Mixolydian solo over an Ionian progression I'd say Dmaj... But if its a Mixolydian chord progression I don't know why you'd use a scale of comparison.

D major/Ionian is the Scale of comparison. The reason you compare the two scales is because D Ionian and D mixolydian BOTH contain a D major triad. I want to know what triads does D mixolydian contain that D Ionian doesn't so I can use those chords in my chord progression to distinguish it from D Ionian. Remember that Ionian and Mixolydian are both Major SOUNDING modes. Think of Mixolydian and Lydian as DIFFERENT FLAVORS of the Ionian mode.

QUOTE (jer @ Feb 28 2009, 03:29 PM) *
Then I dont think I understand the chart.

For Dmaj triad (example) I need to know the notes of Dmaj. I could look at the chart for D Ionian and get them, but I feel I need to know them without a crutch. So Istart with D and go wwhwwwh and get the notes. Then to get the DMaj triad I keep the 1,3,5 and drop the rest.

THEN

I use the chart. I look for a D. Then once I find one I look for a F# 2 steps to the right. And if I find one I look for an A 2 steps to the right of that. If I find it all on the same line then we have a winner.

Were my answers correct?

You could do that Jer but the point of the chart is so you can quickly reference which triads occur in which modes. If you want to do a long division problem you could write it out on paper and figure it out, or you could quickly grab your calculator and figure it out A LOT quicker. laugh.gif Your answers were right though. With the chart all you need to know is that Major triads occur at the I, IV and V positions and Minor triads occur at the ii, iii and vi positions. biggrin.gif
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jer
post Feb 28 2009, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE
With the chart all you need to know is that Major triads occur at the I, IV and V positions and Minor triads occur at the ii, iii and vi positions.


I still don't know what that means.... If the notes of a major triad are the 1,3,5 how can I,IV,V have anything to do with it?

QUOTE
D major/Ionian is the Scale of comparison. The reason you compare the two scales is because D Ionian and D mixolydian BOTH contain a D major triad. I want to know what triads does D mixolydian contain that D Ionian doesn't so I can use those chords in my chord progression to distinguish it from D Ionian. Remember that Ionian and Mixolydian are both Major SOUNDING modes. Think of Mixolydian and Lydian as DIFFERENT FLAVORS of the Ionian mode.


Why not just figure out the chords of D Mixolydian? It seems to look at D Ionian and find the difference is a longer step method.

D Mixolydian = D E F# G A B C

Dmaj
Emin
F#dim
Gmaj
Amin
Bmin
Cmaj

Correct?

Those are your D Mixolydian chords. Why look at D Ionian and D Mixolydian

D Mixolydian = D E F# G A B C
D Ionian = D E F# G A B C#


to see that the difference is the C# then look for chords in D Ionian that have a C instead of C# so you can sound Mixolydian?

Do you see what I am asking?

This post has been edited by jer: Feb 28 2009, 04:21 PM


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lcsdds
post Feb 28 2009, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Feb 28 2009, 04:11 PM) *
I still don't know what that means.... If the notes of a major triad are the 1,3,5 how can I,IV,V have anything to do with it?

The I, IV and V refer to the postion that the notes in the scale fall on. Here is my assumption Jer:

At the I, IV and V postion there is ALWAYS a major triad and at the ii, iii and vi position there is ALWAYS a minor triad.

Do this. You know that D maj is spelled D-F#-A right?

Go to the I column and find D the look two spaces to the right guess what note it there? F#

Go to the IV column and find D then look two spaces to the right guess what? F# again

Go to the V column and find D then look two spaces to the right...TA DA...F# again.

That means in the major scale that whatever note fall in the I, IV or V postion, if you build a triad using that note as the root then it will ALWAYS be a major triad.

Same thing is true of the ii, iii and vi position

Dmin=D-F-A

Go to the ii column and find D, two spaces to the right and you have F.

Go to the iii column and find D, two spaces to the right you have F again.

Go to the vi column and find D, two spaces to the right.....F!!!

So in the major scale, if you build a triad using whatever note occurs at the ii, iii or vi position as the root, it will ALWAYS be minor.

So using the Chart....Whatever note falls on the I, IV or V position is the root of a major triad in that scale and whatever note falls on the ii, iii, or vi position is the root of a minor triad. Test the chart Jer and see if it isn't true.

Spell out E major and E minor. See if every time E is in the I, IV or V position if the note 2 spaces to the right isn't G#, and when is in the ii, iii or vi position if the note 2 spaces to the right isn't G. Test it.
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jer
post Feb 28 2009, 04:46 PM
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I see.

You are using the I IV and V as the starting points only.


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lcsdds
post Feb 28 2009, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Feb 28 2009, 04:46 PM) *
I see.

You are using the I IV and V as the starting points only.

YES!!!
If you spell out A major you have this A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G# OR THIS:

I=A
ii=B
iii=C#
IV=D
V=E
vi=F#
vii/dim=G#

NOW...if I build a triad starting from the IV or D then 1=root=D....3=the third, in this case major third=F#, and 5=fifth=A. The note that determines if a triad is major or minor is the 3rd. Get it now?

Sorry for confusing you. biggrin.gif
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lcsdds
post Feb 28 2009, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE
Those are your D Mixolydian chords. Why look at D Ionian and D Mixolydian

D Mixolydian = D E F# G A B C
D Ionian = D E F# G A B C#


to see that the difference is the C# then look for chords in D Ionian that have a C instead of C# so you can sound Mixolydian?

Do you see what I am asking?



Jer,
Using your chart tell me the triads found in both D Ionian and D mixolydian. Then I want to ask you some questions. I know you have company this weekend so we can continue this when you have more time. But think about this.

If you are soloing over this Progression D-G-Em-G, how do you know if it is D Mixolydian or D Ionian? You know it isn't D lydian because D lydian contains E major and not E minor. Both D Mixoydian and D Ionian contain those 3 chords used in that progression. If you are making a CONSCIOUS decision that you want a progression to SOUND MIXOLYDIAN AS OPPOSED TO IONIAN then how do I do that? The answer is to figure out what the difference between D Mixolydian and D Ionian is. The answer is the difference is that D Ionian has a C# and D mixolydian has a C. That one note can appear in 3 different triads as either the root, third or fifth. That means that D Ionian has different chords associated with it then D Mixolydian. If i want to sound Mixolydian and not Ionian I need to use some chords in my progression that are found in D Mixolydian and not D Ionian. Do you get that?


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lcsdds
post Feb 28 2009, 07:29 PM
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Jer,
I'm gonna give you one more thing to think about. Let's look at the chord progression we are gonna use in our MTP collab this month. D-D-E-E

Now lets look at it measure by measure and see what we could use to solo over it.

For the first two measures we have a D major chord.

What scales contain within it a D-F#-A AKA a D major triad? D Ionian, D Lydian and D Mixolydian.
Check your chart to confirm this!

So for the first two measures we could use either one of those 3 scales and sound good for the most part. smile.gif

Now lets look at the next two measures where we are soloing over E major.

What scales contain within it an E-G#-B AKA an E Major triad? E Ionian, E Lydian and E Mixolydian.

So for these two measures we could use either one of those 3 scales and sound good as well. smile.gif

This is what fusion guys do, analyze every chord all by itself.

But....If you ask yourself... what if I only want to use one scale so I don't have to worry about changing scales every time the chord changes. Well if you analyze everything by writing it out OR....you just look at my chart laugh.gif laugh.gif..You will find that TWO of those 6 scales contain both D-F#-A (D major triad) and E-G#-B (E major triad).

Those two scales are D Lydian and E Mixolydian....Now look at your chart and guess what.....D Lydian and E Mixolydian contain THE EXACT SAME NOTES.

So technically, You could say our progression is either D lydian or E mixolydian...6 of one or half a dozen of the other.

But for our purposes we are gonna call it D lydian. smile.gif



This post has been edited by lcsdds: Feb 28 2009, 08:39 PM
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jer
post Feb 28 2009, 08:23 PM
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your last post seems to be duplicated inside itself.

I understand what you are saying but I dont think you are getting what I am asking.

What is your skype callsign?


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lcsdds
post Feb 28 2009, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Feb 28 2009, 08:23 PM) *
your last post seems to be duplicated inside itself.

I understand what you are saying but I dont think you are getting what I am asking.

What is your skype callsign?

Tell me again what you are asking?
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jer
post Feb 28 2009, 08:52 PM
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if you want chords for D mixolydian why not just start there?

Why look for a comparison scale, (1)

then get those chords (2)

and look for ones that have the D mixolydian notes in them. (3)

I dont see the need for 3 steps.

If you want to sound mixolydian why not just get the chords from the actual scale?


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lcsdds
post Feb 28 2009, 09:00 PM
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QUOTE (jer @ Feb 28 2009, 08:52 PM) *
if you want chords for D mixolydian why not just start there?

Why look for a comparison scale, (1)

then get those chords (2)

and look for ones that have the D mixolydian notes in them. (3)

I dont see the need for 3 steps.

If you want to sound mixolydian why not just get the chords from the actual scale?

Alright I get what you are asking. smile.gif

I want you to give me an example of a possible D Mixolydian chord progression to solo over. Then we'll analyze it. wink.gif

You are correct though Jer. When I want to get say a D Lydian chord progression I know which chords to use without doing the three steps. I am trying to show you guys how I cam to that conclusion though. Once you know why then you don't have to go through all the steps. You will just know. wink.gif
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post Feb 28 2009, 10:11 PM
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Yea. Calm down tiger. Not everyone is smart like you. tongue.gif

Wheres my milkbone at? tongue.gif


QUOTE (lcsdds @ Feb 28 2009, 03:00 PM) *
Alright I get what you are asking. smile.gif

I want you to give me an example of a possible D Mixolydian chord progression to solo over. Then we'll analyze it. wink.gif

You are correct though Jer. When I want to get say a D Lydian chord progression I know which chords to use without doing the three steps. I am trying to show you guys how I cam to that conclusion though. Once you know why then you don't have to go through all the steps. You will just know. wink.gif



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jer
post Feb 28 2009, 11:59 PM
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I don't follow why the steps are necessary at all.

Lets use Ionian.

Say you want to do a progression in D Ionian. Do you use a comparison scale? No. You just take the notes and stack the thirds to get the chords.

Why not do the same with any other mode?

This is what sucks about printing stuff. I could explain in 30 sec what I am saying.....

Simple - if you want a chord progression in B Dorian you need the chords of B Dorian. Thats all you need.

Using the chart, here is B Dorian. B C# D E F# G# A

take your Maj, Min, Min Maj Maj Min Dim order and bump it over 1 since we are starting on the 2nd mode (Dorian)

Min, Min Maj Maj Min Dim, Maj

Viola.

Bmin
C#min
Dmaj
Emaj
F#min
G#dim
Amaj

No comparison scale needed. To me this is one step. I want a progression in B Dorian, there are the chords.

QUOTE
I want you to give me an example of a possible D Mixolydian chord progression to solo over. Then we'll analyze it.


Dmaj
Emin
F#dim
Gmaj
Amin
Bmin
Cmaj

there are the D mixolydian chords.




QUOTE
Yea. Calm down tiger. Not everyone is smart like you.


Who are you talking to?




Hey Dan, what do you call a Dr that flunks out of med school?

laugh.gif


This post has been edited by jer: Feb 28 2009, 11:25 PM


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lcsdds
post Mar 1 2009, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE (jer @ Feb 28 2009, 11:40 PM) *
I don't follow why the steps are necessary at all.

Lets use Ionian.

Say you want to do a progression in D Ionian. Do you use a comparison scale? No. You just take the notes and stack the thirds to get the chords.

Why not do the same with any other mode?

This is what sucks about printing stuff. I could explain in 30 sec what I am saying.....

Simple - if you want a chord progression in B Dorian you need the chords of B Dorian. Thats all you need.

Using the chart, here is B Dorian. B C# D E F# G# A

take your Maj, Min, Min Maj Maj Min Dim order and bump it over 1 since we are starting on the 2nd mode (Dorian)

Min, Min Maj Maj Min Dim, Maj

Viola.

Bmin
C#min
Dmaj
Emaj
F#min
G#dim
Amaj

No comparison scale needed. To me this is one step. I want a progression in B Dorian, there are the chords.



Dmaj
Emin
F#dim
Gmaj
Amin
Bmin
Cmaj

there are the D mixolydian chords.

First of all the hungry dog is outside.....I'll need to go to Wal-Mart to get some milkbones though. laugh.gif

Alrght here is the deal.

If I said....Alright guys we are gonna work in the D Lydian mode this month.

The chord prgression we are gonna solo over is D-E-D C#min.

I want your takes in 3 weeks.




After we did the solos I would ask you guys what you thought of our Lydian collab and Jer would say:
'Dude....Lydian mode ROCKS \m/\m/ laugh.gif It has this dreamy kinda vibe goin on,, kinda like Satch's FIABD, why is that'

I would then say "It sounds kinda dreamy because of the raised 4th"....to which Jer would respond "what the !@#$ is a raised fourth." laugh.gif

To which I would the respond with a long winded explanation that sounds reall similar to the post in my main thread laugh.gif laugh.gif

My Skype call sign is "montestevens".

I am trying to take you guys through the process of why we focus on certain chords when writing a modal progression. If I just said use this chord or that chord, I know the first question out of you guys mouth would be...WHY SHOULD I USE THAT CHORD!!

I gotta run to Wal-Mart!!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

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jer
post Mar 1 2009, 12:11 AM
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QUOTE
I would then say "It sounds kinda dreamy because of the raised 4th"....to which Jer would respond "what the !@#$ is a raised fourth."


I got your raised 4th RIGHT HERE!!!! HAHAHAHA!!!! I know what a raised 4th is. smile.gif

I know what you are trying to do. I'm just not following the whole comparison scale thing. Seems like extra steps.





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lcsdds
post Mar 1 2009, 12:32 AM
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QUOTE (jer @ Mar 1 2009, 12:11 AM) *
I got your raised 4th RIGHT HERE!!!! HAHAHAHA!!!! I know what a raised 4th is. smile.gif

I know what you are trying to do. I'm just not following the whole comparison scale thing. Seems like extra steps.

All the scale comparison does is show you why Lydian sounds Lydian and not Ionian. Ionian is the "Standard" for a major sound. Lydian is a variation of the Ionian. It sounds Major but not in the same way Ionian sounds major. The reason for this is the raised 4th...which you obviously know what it it is!! laugh.gif laugh.gif
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jer
post Mar 1 2009, 01:30 AM
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\m/ \m/


--------------------
My Gear

Jackson SL-1 USA Soloist
Jackson DK2M
ESP LTD MH-400
ESP LTD EC-1000
Ibanez Custom S-Series
Martin 001 Acoustic

Handmade Marshall JCM800 50watt head (with mods)
Carvin 50x2 Stereo Tube Amp
Boss GT-10 Preamp/Effects Processor
Digitech GSP-1101 Preamp/Effects Processor
Behringer FCB1010 Midi Controlled Floorboard
Behringer Dualfex EX2200
Behinger Stereo EQ
Line 6 POD with 2.3 upgrade
Line 6 Floor Board
Line 6 Spider III Practice Amp
Nady UHF Wireless


"Who will eat the decay, when the worms have lost their sight?"
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