2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Signal Problem, Pandora PX4D through Emu 1212m
Caelumamittendum
post Feb 28 2009, 12:58 AM
Post #1


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.625
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



Hey everyone,

Emir and I talked a bit about this and tried to sort it out, but it didn't really work, and now I discovered something new.

To explain the problem to you all:

I have my guitar hooked up through my Pandora PX4D into my Emu 1212m Sound card. When just playing and listening through the speakers of my computer it seems alright in volume, but when I record something, the signal and volume is a lot lower. Even though nothing is put drastically low on the Emu Mixer application (in fact all that can be set to 0 is set to that).

Now I am actually not at my regular computer, as I am visiting my parents, but I brought my guitar and Pandora PX4D with me. I noticed something when playing directly through it and not through my computer - it is DRASTICALLY louder. So loud I had to put the Pandora to half it's volume.

I am wondering if there might be something wrong with my audio card (I have three PCI slots in my computer, if I recall correctly) and I use one for the 1212m and one for the 0404m which came along with the 1212m. It shouldn't really make any difference which slots they are in, should it?

Besides that - could it just be due to quality loss through the cables? To get it hooked up to my computer I have to first have a transformer making the one output on the Pandora to a small-ish one which has stereo, then again make those large jacks to enter the right/left input on the Emu Sound card. I tried with just one cable through and make it go directly from the Pandora and to the sound card with no weird ways around it - just plain mono then, but the signal and input was still a lot lower than when playing directly through the Pandora with the head phones plugged into that, as I have it now.

Any suggestions what this can be? I do not think that it has ever been any other way, I just hadn't paid that much attention to it untill now.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Andrew6
post Feb 28 2009, 01:00 AM
Post #2


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 604
Joined: 17-June 08
From: NB. Canada
Member No.: 5.319



Check the settings on your sound card maybe there is a line in amplification setting or volume? Make sure your drivers are up to date as well smile.gif


--------------------
The Gear Box:

Jackon RR5 Randy Rhoads
Epiphone Special II
Ibanez GRG170DX

Rogue Electric Acoustic (CHEAP lol)

Behringer GX210 AMP
Crate GT30 AMP

Korg Ax5G Effects Unit
Zoom G2 Effects Unit
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 28 2009, 01:04 AM
Post #3


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



Can you see the meter in the PatchMix application? What does it say? Does it go to yellow color on the meter? Can you increase the volume of the signal that Pandora is sending to the 1212m, so that the card gets a strong signal?

Also what do you use for recording?

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: Feb 28 2009, 01:04 AM


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Feb 28 2009, 01:33 AM
Post #4


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.625
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



When I'm playing through my computer my Pandora is set to 10 out of 10 in volume. Then the volume is in line with the most backing tracks etc. When I record and listen the recorded lead is much lower though.

If I unplug the Pandora from the computer and play just through the Pandora with headphones the 10 out of 10 blows my ears off!

Drivers are up to date, and the line in right and left is set to be alright.

Ivan: When watching the meter it goes to about -5 to -10. All dependent on how I turn up and down the AUX settings of the line in right and left. If I put those above 0 (say to between 3 and 6) it becomes about -2 and -5. When recording and listening it is better, but still not as when playing with just headphones and Pandora.

From my experience it seems something is either wrong with how I set up the hardware or something wrong with the software and inputs.

I use Cubase or Audacity by the way. Happens in both programs.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Muris Varajic
post Feb 28 2009, 02:03 AM
Post #5


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 15.459
Joined: 22-June 07
From: Sarajevo,Bosnia
Member No.: 2.159



It must be something with channels on E-MU mixer.
Have you set everything to 0, each individual channel and master mix?
Level on input channels is only level of monitoring, not actual recording level.
If it's set below 0 you hear it less loud comparing to recording level,
and once you play what you recorded it goes to master mix
which reproduces it in real level if you have everything set to 0
in Cubase or Audacity of curse.

I have E-MU 1820m tho but I guess the mixer is pretty much the same
or it works on same rules if nothing else.


--------------------
Youtube
MySpace
Website



Album "Let It Out" on
iTunes
and CD Baby

Check out my video lessons and instructor board!

The Pianist
tune is progress,check it out!

"ok.. it is great.. :P

have you myspace? Can i to personalize this for you guy?"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 28 2009, 03:24 AM
Post #6


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



There must be something wrong with your settings, the hardware should work fine. Let's go step by step:

Check out the first picture. I plug the guitar in the left channel strip. Click on the first insert (the one with an arrow. In the TV Screen you will see the meter in more detail. This is where you monitor the signal as it comes from Pandora. It should be in the YELLOW area from -10dB to somewhere around -2dB, but NOT in the RED area. If the signal is bellow the -10dB then the signal is too weak from the Pandora.

Let me know what do you see on your meter as I've showed you here.

On the second picture there is a mixer from Cubase. There is only one bus created, and that is the send from the PatchMix that sends the guitar signal. When the signal is healthy in PatchMix, you should trim it with the fader of the Cubase input channel bus so that the peaks are somewhere in the red circle are, but NOT clipping.

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: Feb 28 2009, 03:26 AM
Attached image(s)
Attached Image Attached Image
 


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Saoirse O'Shea
post Feb 28 2009, 12:23 PM
Post #7


Moderator - low level high stakes
Group Icon

Group: GMC Senior
Posts: 6.173
Joined: 27-June 07
From: Espania - Cadiz province
Member No.: 2.194



QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Feb 28 2009, 03:24 AM) *
There must be something wrong with your settings, the hardware should work fine. Let's go step by step:

... It should be in the YELLOW area from -10dB to somewhere around -2dB, but NOT in the RED area. If the signal is bellow the -10dB then the signal is too weak from the Pandora.

...


I think Ivan is right here. Mixers - hardware and software - often have a facility for you to set what is the point where it red lines. It is often common practice to set the master fader to indicate overload at -16dB despite the scale readings showing something rather different. I have mine set at -16 =Zero, so I have 16dB headroom warning before I actually clip. This allows both for peak readings to go marginally into the red occasionally without necessarily clipping and, more commonly, allows for some additive summing when the different tracks are summed in to a master track. The net result is that setting the master fader at 0dB on the mixer can sound quieter then from the source.

TBH in recording terms the two main issues here are 1) not clipping and 2) signal to noise. The above helps minimise 1). But it only really becomes truly useful when you minimise noise in your DAW so that you lower your noise floor to such an extent that you can still get a good signal to noise, dynamic range ratio at -16dB fsd. An 'ok' dynamic range for music is anywhere above 90dB so you need a system that can give you a noise floor better than -106dB (using -16dB = 0 pmlr). 'Ok' here is relative, it wouldn't do for a grand piano and classical that have a wider dynamic range than,say, most rock music. A good dynamic range though would be better than 110dB - that needs a floor of -126dB with -16=0. Getting a noise floor of -126dB is pushing in to pro end recording studio territory - you can achieve this in a home studio with a 'in the box' approach but it is expensive requiring high end AD/DA, pre-amps and sound cards etc. Out of the box you will not achieve -126dB at home since there is just too much transient and background noise.

Anyway - back to your question - if you want the two to pair up volume wise then as Ivan has said you may have to check and alter the preference settings for your master fader.


--------------------
Get your music professionally mastered by anl AES registered Mastering Engineer. Contact me for Audio Mastering Services and Advice and visit our website www.miromastering.com

Be friends on facebook with us here.

We use professional, mastering grade hardware in our mastering studo. Our hardware includes:
Cranesong Avocet II Monitor Controller, Dangerous Music Liasion Insert Hardware Router, ATC SCM Pro Monitors, Lavry Black DA11, Prism Orpheus ADC/DAC, Gyratec Gyraf XIV Parallel Passive Mastering EQ, Great River MAQ 2NV Mastering EQ, Kush Clariphonic Parallel EQ Shelf, Maselec MLA-2 Mastering Compressor, API 2500 Mastering Compressor, Eventide Eclipse Reverb/Echo.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Feb 28 2009, 01:36 PM
Post #8


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.625
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



Now, I don't have my computer with me here, so I cannot really check it, but I recall it as being around -15, if all things from the mixer is set to default. If I put everything to 0dB it rises a bit, to maybe between -10 and -5. Still when recording though, the signal is very low. The only solution I've found to this is raising some settings to above 0, which of course isn't the right solution.

If I can find the right cables I'm going to hook my Pandora up through my mother's old laptop, which I've used before.... I think the signal is fine there.

One thing I've come to notice on my own computer though... as the Emu won't work unless you have the Emu Mixer Application installed, you can only alter things in that. However if I open up the Windows Mixer, choose the Emu Sound card and then input, it is only set to about half volume, and I cannot alter it as it is grayed out. I hope that makes sense.

It's been a while since I tested it, but I actually do think the problem is also there if I just use my onboard sound card to record through.

Just wanted to add another thing - I'm using Windows Xp 64 bit, though I'm not sure how relevant it is, but it has caused a few problems with some drivers, but I don't remember any problems with the EMu driver.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Feb 28 2009, 02:52 PM
Post #9


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



Well -10 to -5 is a GOOD thing! smile.gif

Just make sure that the signal is properly fed into the DAW, I have a feeling that the problem is there.


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Feb 28 2009, 03:38 PM
Post #10


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.625
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



Yeah, but where do I adjust that?

On a side note, what about the fact that the Windows Mixer says that the input from the is only set to about half of the bar? I would like to see what it would be like if that was set to full instead of just half.

As it is now the volume from the Pandora is still drastically lower when going through the computer than when I play with headphones through the Pandora. I compare these with the volume of the backing track. So I think in general there is a volume loss when entering the computer, and that could be due to that mixer not being put to full?

I don't know if you know what I mean though.



Now, as said earlier, I know that one does not use the Windows mixer with the Emu sound card, but the fact that I can still choose and see that it is only at half level in the Windows Mixer must mean something I geuss? I cannot do anything to alter it though, as it is grayed out. The above picture is just to try and give you a hint of what I'm talking about, as that's not the actual picture.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Mar 1 2009, 01:30 AM
Post #11


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



Can you please give the actual picture? You can print screen it, and save it in paint or photoshop easily.

You adjust the volume in DAW as I described it the eariler post here on the topic, on the picture 2, here:
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&p=346286


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Mar 1 2009, 01:56 AM
Post #12


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.625
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



I cannot give you a picture before I'm home late tomorrow. I'm pretty sure the input level on the DAW is as it should be though. Wouldn't it by default be as it should?

As the volume gets lower as soon as I hook it up to the computer, wouldn't it most likely be something to do with how Windows "recieves" the sound?


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Mar 1 2009, 02:01 AM
Post #13


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



It could be, but that may not be the only reason. I advise that you check out both options, both the windows mixer and the Cubase mixer, possibly if you could play something and let the meter jumps and screensave in that moment. I know it's a lot to ask, but it would help us seeing the things you see on your PC.


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Mar 1 2009, 10:54 AM
Post #14


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.625
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Mar 1 2009, 02:01 AM) *
It could be, but that may not be the only reason. I advise that you check out both options, both the windows mixer and the Cubase mixer, possibly if you could play something and let the meter jumps and screensave in that moment. I know it's a lot to ask, but it would help us seeing the things you see on your PC.


No, no, it's not a lot to ask - takes a few seconds to do, I'm just not at home right now, so to do so I would have to take the train to Copenhagen and back here laugh.gif

I just found that I had time to write this topic while visiting my family, as we didn't have much to do. In general it has been bothering me a lot lately, and I think that now that I'm physically further away from the problem, it's easier to try and get a hold on it.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Mar 1 2009, 11:28 AM
Post #15


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



Aaah, I see, I thought you were a bit closer, sorry! biggrin.gif

Well, I think this is not a big problem, it's something in the mixer settings, either PatchMix, or Windows, or Cubase. We won't find out until you sit on the machine and tell us, so when you do mate, we'll be glad to help of course! smile.gif


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Mar 1 2009, 11:20 PM
Post #16


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.625
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



This is the Windows Mixer thingie I'm talking about:

And this is what the Patch Mixer looks like with everything put to zero and my Pandora cranked all the way up in volume. If I then unplug the Pandora from the computer and play through headphones I have to turn down the volume on the Pandora as it's then WAY to loud.

And finally this is what I get in Audacity:

The signal only becomes stronger if I turn up the AUX's on the Patch Mixer to above 0.
Attached image(s)
Attached Image Attached Image Attached Image
 


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Mar 2 2009, 02:10 PM
Post #17


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.625
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



Anyone?

EDIT: and here is what happened after getting it hooked up through my onboard sound card:

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Mar 2 2009, 08:07 PM
Attached image(s)
Attached Image
 


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Mar 2 2009, 08:11 PM
Post #18


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.625
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298




And that is with the Pandora at only half volume.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Mar 2 2009, 11:47 PM
Post #19


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



OK, this helps a lot.

First, the SUM mixer in windows is not important for guitar recording. Mine stands on a same place as yours, and this is not I think the issue.

Also, the signal is reasonably loud in your PatchMix mixer. I see no problem there. The card is receiving a good signal, but I want you to try to change the input and output line settings. Try both +4 and -10 values to see if there is any increase. Let me know what happened please.


Attached image(s)
Attached Image
 


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Caelumamittendum
post Mar 3 2009, 12:01 AM
Post #20


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.625
Joined: 14-June 08
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Member No.: 5.298



It all becomes even weaker at +4dB. It is at 10dB in all pictures.

I've tried installing Windows XP 32 bit again. I can't remember having the problems in that before, so I'm currently installing drivers etc. Will let you know how it turns out.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 24th October 2017 - 01:31 AM