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> "flat" Notes, Hmmm... Dunno why it does this...
CathShadow
post Apr 6 2009, 01:37 PM
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Hey guys, so here's the thing: when I play sometimes and I press the strings down some of the notes come out sounding quite flat (a sound that irritates my ears).... They're on the correct frets, and the guitar's in tune...

Any ideas why it happens or how to fix it?

Pierre


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Bogdan Radovic
post Apr 6 2009, 01:40 PM
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I'm not sure what you mean by "flat".But you should try to fret strings just behind the appropriate frets for best sound.

This post has been edited by Bogdan Radovic: Apr 6 2009, 01:40 PM


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CathShadow
post Apr 6 2009, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (Bogdan Radovic @ Apr 6 2009, 02:40 PM) *
I'm not sure what you mean by "flat".But you should try to fret strings just behind the appropriate frets for best sound.


Hehe yeah I'm not sure how to discribe it... but the best is to say the tone of the note is just a little lower than it should be or something to that effect....


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Caelumamittendum
post Apr 6 2009, 01:51 PM
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Could be an intonation problem as well.

What frets are flat and how did you tune your guitar?

If it is an intonation problem, proper setup might solve it. If you don't have any experience in this, I suggest you see a guitar luthier.

From you reply to Bogdan, I think it could be something to do with how the bridge is set up. Have you changed strings recently or have you at some point gone from like .010 to .009's or something similar (maybe the other way around)?


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CathShadow
post Apr 6 2009, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Apr 6 2009, 02:49 PM) *
Could be an intonation problem as well.

What frets are flat and how did you tune your guitar?

If it is an intonation problem, proper setup might solve it. If you don't have any experience in this, I suggest you see a guitar luthier.



Hmmm maybe... it's the e, B, and sometimes G strings.... on around 4-8th frets... the guitar gets tuned via my pedal (which has chromatic tuning) and the lights are all green when I pick each chord, and they sound good when test it out....


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Caelumamittendum
post Apr 6 2009, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (CathShadow @ Apr 6 2009, 02:52 PM) *
Hmmm maybe... it's the e, B, and sometimes G strings.... on around 4-8th frets... the guitar gets tuned via my pedal (which has chromatic tuning) and the lights are all green when I pick each chord, and they sound good when test it out....


I see. Well, what happens if you try and tune with harmonics (http://www.get-tuned.com/harmonics.php)? Are the same frets out of tune?

And once again - have you changed strings recently or are they fairly old?

That said, a guitar will always be slightly (that's VERY little) out of tune.


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DeepRoots
post Apr 6 2009, 02:25 PM
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Have you tried using your tuner to see how flat those notes are? But sounds like your intomation is off to me..
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CathShadow
post Apr 6 2009, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Apr 6 2009, 02:56 PM) *
I see. Well, what happens if you try and tune with harmonics (http://www.get-tuned.com/harmonics.php)? Are the same frets out of tune?

And once again - have you changed strings recently or are they fairly old?

That said, a guitar will always be slightly (that's VERY little) out of tune.



Hmmm.. I'll try tuning it that way when I get home, and let you know, Thanks biggrin.gif....

Well, the strings are around .... I'd say 6-7 months old?... and I practice between 1 and 4 hours a day on them


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Dejan Farkas
post Apr 6 2009, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE (CathShadow @ Apr 6 2009, 03:26 PM) *
Well, the strings are around .... I'd say 6-7 months old?... and I practice between 1 and 4 hours a day on them


I suggest you to put new strings first smile.gif


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Marek Rojewski
post Apr 6 2009, 02:36 PM
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I don't change my strings to often, but 6-7 month strings used everyday are to old most probably and should be changed.

EDIT: Dejan was faster:)

This post has been edited by Marek Rojewski: Apr 6 2009, 02:37 PM


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CathShadow
post Apr 6 2009, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE (Dejan Farkas @ Apr 6 2009, 03:35 PM) *
I suggest you to put new strings first smile.gif



New strings? ah okay... I'll give that a bash... I have a fresh set I got for christmas biggrin.gif.... hehehe knew that'd be a handy gift biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Apr 6 2009, 03:36 PM) *
I don't change my strings to often, but 6-7 month strings used everyday are to old most probably and should be changed.

EDIT: Dejan was faster:)


hahahah Great minds wink.gif


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Artemus
post Apr 6 2009, 03:08 PM
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Aye, putting new strings on won't make it any worse wink.gif


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CathShadow
post Apr 6 2009, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (Artemus @ Apr 6 2009, 04:08 PM) *
Aye, putting new strings on won't make it any worse wink.gif


rofl good point..


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29a
post Apr 6 2009, 03:29 PM
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If you play 1-4 hours a day you should change your strings about once a month. If you use coated strings maybe once every 3 months. But you'll probably notice the huge difference in tone and feel yourself as soon as you change them wink.gif

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CathShadow
post Apr 6 2009, 03:37 PM
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QUOTE (29a @ Apr 6 2009, 04:29 PM) *
If you play 1-4 hours a day you should change your strings about once a month. If you use coated strings maybe once every 3 months. But you'll probably notice the huge difference in tone and feel yourself as soon as you change them wink.gif

Jonas


Ish that often?


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fkalich
post Apr 6 2009, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (CathShadow @ Apr 6 2009, 09:37 AM) *
Ish that often?


I rarely change my strings, and play probably as much as most. Actually, never, unless a wound one goes dead, which never happens, because I attach them properly.

It could be a guitar bridge adjustment, but I don't think that is the issue here.

What you are hearing is just the nature of the 12 note equal temperament scale. The harmonic intervals are only approximations when the guitar is tuned. Major 4th's and 5th's are close approximations, but others are not so close. This has just been a compromise that was established centuries ago, it is impossible to set up any instrument with set frequencies to play perfectly accurate harmonic intervals in all keys.

The major 3rd for example is a bit flat when you tune your guitar. When playing something, such as Hot's Turkish March (Mozart), I actually at the end will bend the 2nd string just a bit. I do this when I hold that interval very long, to get a sweet interval.

This is just something that we have to live with. On a Violin it is different, they can put the finger wherever they want, but we don't have that option.

edited: correct my saying major 4th when I meant to say major 3rd.

This post has been edited by fkalich: Apr 6 2009, 04:18 PM
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CathShadow
post Apr 6 2009, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Apr 6 2009, 05:15 PM) *
I rarely change my strings, and play probably as much as most. Actually, never, unless a wound one goes dead, which never happens, because I attach them properly.

It could be a guitar bridge adjustment, but I don't think that is the issue here.

What you are hearing is just the nature of the 12 note equal temperament scale. The harmonic intervals are only approximations when the guitar is tuned. Major 4th's and 5th's are close approximations, but others are not so close. This has just been a compromise that was established centuries ago, it is impossible to set up any instrument with set frequencies to play perfectly accurate harmonic intervals in all keys.

The major 3rd for example is a bit flat when you tune your guitar. When playing something, such as Hot's Turkish March (Mozart), I actually at the end will bend the 2nd string just a bit. I do this when I hold that interval very long, to get a sweet interval.

This is just something that we have to live with. On a Violin it is different, they can put the finger wherever they want, but we don't have that option.

edited: correct my saying major 4th when I meant to say major 3rd.


Hmmm I see.... Its a sound that seriously grates me though... it just sounds bad when you're on the right fret at the right time and your guitar's in tune...


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fkalich
post Apr 6 2009, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (CathShadow @ Apr 6 2009, 10:23 AM) *
Hmmm I see.... Its a sound that seriously grates me though... it just sounds bad when you're on the right fret at the right time and your guitar's in tune...


Well, just working on playing better. When your rhythm improves, and your touch, things like this just seem to be covered up. But I understand what you are saying, how something like that can sound bad to you at times.

Use of vibrato covers it also. Just keep working on your playing, and things like this just seem to vanish as issues. I think great rhythm really tends to cover it up, just makes it less apparent.

Listen to your countryman, Ian. He has great rhythm, and that is one reason he sounds so great. I think a lot of that comes from his relaxed hands, I have never seen such relaxed hands.
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CathShadow
post Apr 6 2009, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Apr 6 2009, 05:30 PM) *
Well, just working on playing better. When your rhythm improves, and your touch, things like this just seem to be covered up. But I understand what you are saying, how something like that can sound bad to you at times.

Use of vibrato covers it also. Just keep working on your playing, and things like this just seem to vanish as issues. I think great rhythm really tends to cover it up, just makes it less apparent.

Listen to your countryman, Ian. He has great rhythm, and that is one reason he sounds so great. I think a lot of that comes from his relaxed hands, I have never seen such relaxed hands.

Hmm.. Ian?.... maybe I'll check some of his stuff out?


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fkalich
post Apr 6 2009, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE (CathShadow @ Apr 6 2009, 10:34 AM) *
Hmm.. Ian?.... maybe I'll check some of his stuff out?


Look at his Sweeping Arpeggios lesson for sure, he goes all over the neck, all kinds of forms, and is it a nice composition, well played. And look at his picking hand, the free fingers, you can just about see them floating. I think that is something to strive for, that kind of looseness. I really think Ian is quite good. Some guys just look at how fast a guy is, and judge them by that. I don't. Ian is fast enough, but there is a lot more to playing than just how fast or technical you can be.
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