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revolutioN
post May 6 2009, 06:09 PM
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Hi smile.gif

Just started here at GMC and am enjoying the lessons. But still I feel like I'm stuck in a rut and would like to learn modes and the theory behind them. I can't find a lesson that really clicks with me. I want to find out what modes are and most importantly WHERE and HOW to use them, because at the moment I feel like im stuck with pentatonics and all its positions and it starts to sound the same everytime I solo.

So if anyone understands what I mean and knows of a lesson here on GMC that will help, please post it smile.gif

thanks cool.gif
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lcsdds
post May 6 2009, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE (revolutioN @ May 6 2009, 06:09 PM) *
Hi smile.gif

Just started here at GMC and am enjoying the lessons. But still I feel like I'm stuck in a rut and would like to learn modes and the theory behind them. I can't find a lesson that really clicks with me. I want to find out what modes are and most importantly WHERE and HOW to use them, because at the moment I feel like im stuck with pentatonics and all its positions and it starts to sound the same everytime I solo.

So if anyone understands what I mean and knows of a lesson here on GMC that will help, please post it smile.gif

thanks cool.gif

Uh OH......here we go again....... tongue.gif laugh.gif
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Red
post May 6 2009, 06:20 PM
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Check Andrew's theory lessons about modes. https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...?showtopic=3351

Somewhere there, and welcome to GMC smile.gif


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Muris Varajic
post May 6 2009, 06:23 PM
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All modes are equally important just like all other scales.
Here are some of my lessons covering certain modes. smile.gif

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guit...loing-beginner/
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guit...asing-beginner/
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guit...n-jam-beginner/
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/phrygi...loing-beginner/


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kjutte
post May 6 2009, 06:25 PM
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Ok, what you are talking about are the modal boxes.
All the modal boxes carry the same notes. Example

C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian

Still, it's very important that you learn all these boxes, because its knowledge will make your fingers be able to play in one scale ALL over the guitar-neck, with little knowledge. (Priceless!)

Modal playing, however, is different.
This will definitely confuse you, as you don't know the basics, but I will write it anyway.

It's all about which chords you are playing in the back, or even what notes.
Say you're playing a Cmaj chord.

Even if you play B locrian to Cmaj, it'll still be C Ionian, because B Lociran and C ionian have the same notes.
If you really want to play in B Locrian, you need to play it over a Bdim chord, or just a B note.

You can also do vice versa-> Playing C Ionian to a Bdim chord will still sound Locrian.


So, to sum it up for you-
You need to learn all the modal boxes to make a fundament.
It will make you able to jam alot better, as you are free to play all over the fretboard.

Also, learning the boxes and its name will help you toward learning modal playing.
For example, if you know the backing you're playing in is D Mixolydian, you know that you could play D Mixo pattern as a start to get going, but E aeolian would sound just as good if you know which notes to focus on. (Each mode has characteristic notes, unique from eachother.) Remember, D mixo, E aeolian, F# Locrian, G Ionian ETC have the same notes, so it's all about your tonic chord placement (rootchord, which defines the scale you put over it.)

Some knowledge, and a decently experienced ear is needed to play well modally.

Hope this helped you!

EDIT: We love theory here at GMC; so keep asking!

This post has been edited by kjutte: May 6 2009, 06:25 PM
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lcsdds
post May 6 2009, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ May 6 2009, 06:25 PM) *
Ok, what you are talking about are the modal boxes.
All the modal boxes carry the same notes. Example

C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian

Still, it's very important that you learn all these boxes, because its knowledge will make your fingers be able to play in one scale ALL over the guitar-neck, with little knowledge. (Priceless!)

Modal playing, however, is different.
This will definitely confuse you, as you don't know the basics, but I will write it anyway.

It's all about which chords you are playing in the back, or even what notes.
Say you're playing a Cmaj chord.

Even if you play B locrian to Cmaj, it'll still be C Ionian, because B Lociran and C ionian have the same notes.
If you really want to play in B Locrian, you need to play it over a Bdim chord, or just a B note.

You can also do vice versa-> Playing C Ionian to a Bdim chord will still sound Locrian.


So, to sum it up for you-
You need to learn all the modal boxes to make a fundament.
It will make you able to jam alot better, as you are free to play all over the fretboard.

Also, learning the boxes and its name will help you toward learning modal playing.
For example, if you know the backing you're playing in is D Mixolydian, you know that you could play D Mixo pattern as a start to get going, but E aeolian would sound just as good if you know which notes to focus on. (Each mode has characteristic notes, unique from eachother.) Remember, D mixo, E aeolian, F# Locrian, G Ionian ETC have the same notes, so it's all about your tonic chord placement (rootchord, which defines the scale you put over it.)

Some knowledge, and a decently experienced ear is needed to play well modally.

Hope this helped you!

EDIT: We love theory here at GMC; so keep asking!

Good explanation Kjutte. You can't talk about modes without talking about chords. To get the sound of a particular mode you have to have a scale being played over a chord......the interaction of these two elements is what gives you the sound of a mode. smile.gif
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kjutte
post May 6 2009, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ May 6 2009, 07:29 PM) *
Good explanation Kjutte. You can't talk about modes without talking about chords. To get the sound of a particular mode you have to have a scale being played over a chord......the interaction of these two elements is what gives you the sound of a mode. smile.gif


Well, you kind of can. Playing the first 7 notes of a pattern will give you an idea, with no backing. But playing that pattern to a relative chord will confuse you (happened to me, while learning modes!!)

So it's definitely alot easier to understand it when relating it to something concrete!
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David Wallimann
post May 6 2009, 06:35 PM
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Hi man,
modes can be confusing...
Check this thread:
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=27110

I hope this helps a bit!


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lcsdds
post May 6 2009, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ May 6 2009, 06:32 PM) *
Well, you kind of can. Playing the first 7 notes of a pattern will give you an idea, with no backing. But playing that pattern to a relative chord will confuse you (happened to me, while learning modes!!)

So it's definitely alot easier to understand it when relating it to something concrete!

I really think that rather than talking about Modes as scales what should be taught is how to write a Modal Chord progression. If you know how to do that then figuring out what scale to play over it is simple. smile.gif
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kjutte
post May 6 2009, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ May 6 2009, 07:37 PM) *
I really think that rather than talking about Modes as scales what should be taught is how to write a Modal Chord progression. If you know how to do that then figuring out what scale to play over it is simple. smile.gif


Well, by thinking of it as a scale that is unique, you will generate a unique chord progression derived only frmo that mode, so it pretty much goes hand in hand . smile.gif

You can't write a modal progression if you don't know what unique scale notes are in the given mode tongue.gif

This post has been edited by kjutte: May 6 2009, 06:42 PM
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lcsdds
post May 6 2009, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ May 6 2009, 06:41 PM) *
Well, by thinking of it as a scale that is unique, you will generate a unique chord progression derived only frmo that mode, so it pretty much goes hand in hand . smile.gif

You can't write a modal progression if you don't know what unique scale notes are in the given mode tongue.gif

But certain chords are unique to specific modes.....how does one figure out which chords to focus on to get the sound of a mode? smile.gif
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kjutte
post May 6 2009, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ May 6 2009, 07:44 PM) *
But certain chords are unique to specific modes.....how does one figure out which chords to focus on to get the sound of a mode? smile.gif


By looking at the unique notes.

Example, in phrygian it's the b2, so any chord including b2 could resolve to tonic.

I didn't mean to sound as a wiseass btw, man!

Another example, if ONE chord is unique to a mode, then it has to be an extended one. If not , you need cadence as I explained.
Example for Lydian, it could be Maj7#11

This post has been edited by kjutte: May 6 2009, 06:50 PM
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lcsdds
post May 6 2009, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ May 6 2009, 06:46 PM) *
By looking at the unique notes.

Example, in phrygian it's the b2, so any chord including b2 could resolve to tonic.

I didn't mean to sound as a wiseass btw, man!

I know you aren't Kjutte. tongue.gif laugh.gif I am just wanting revolutioN to see that to get the sound of the mode you have to do more than just play a certain "box shape"......I thought that way for many years. I know you know all this stuff.. laugh.gif Just trying to get revolutioN to start to think about modes as Scales AND chords working together. smile.gif

This post has been edited by lcsdds: May 6 2009, 06:51 PM
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kjutte
post May 6 2009, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ May 6 2009, 07:50 PM) *
I know you aren't Kjutte. tongue.gif laugh.gif I am just wanting revolutioN to see that to get the sound of the mode you have to do more than just play a certain "box shape"......I thought that way for many years. I know you know all this stuff.. laugh.gif Just trying to get revolutioN to start to think about modes as Scales AND chords working together. smile.gif


Lol, without sounding like a wiseass, agian, I have to disagree.
As I said, if you play the given mode's notes without any backing, you'll hear the distinct notes.

Ofc, I totally agree, you'll hear it alot clearer with a backing, but it's definitely there without too.

Try to play C ionian pattern alone, then C lydian pattern alone. You'll hear the #4 for sure!!

biggrin.gif
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lcsdds
post May 6 2009, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE (kjutte @ May 6 2009, 06:53 PM) *
Lol, without sounding like a wiseass, agian, I have to disagree.
As I said, if you play the given mode's notes without any backing, you'll hear the distinct notes.

Ofc, I totally agree, you'll hear it alot clearer with a backing, but it's definitely there without too.

Try to play C ionian pattern alone, then C lydian pattern alone. You'll hear the #4 for sure!!

biggrin.gif

That is true Kjutte....especially if you first play C Ionian and the play C lydian. That is a very helpful way to do it. But if you are shredding using the C Ionian box shapes without a backing it is hard to tell which scale you are using. Just my Opinion of course.
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kjutte
post May 6 2009, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ May 6 2009, 07:55 PM) *
That is true Kjutte....especially if you first play C Ionian and the play C lydian. That is a very helpful way to do it. But if you are shredding using the C Ionian box shapes without a backing it is hard to tell which scale you are using. Just my Opinion of course.


Totally agree! Need to listen closely smile.gif
Same with modal playing, if you shred in lydian or shred in Ionian, even with chords, it won't sound alot different!

That's where the interval knowledge comes in handy- Landing on characteristic notes, sliding out form them, into them, sequencing cadences, etc!
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Jakub Luptovec
post May 6 2009, 07:18 PM
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Well if much emphasis is not being put on that #4 (i.e. its not used as a last note for example, so the interval will ring strongly) its very hard to tell, if you are not equipped with a pair of very experienced ears..

Regarding that chords/scales debate, my way to study modes was to play E maj7 and then ionan mode (7th fret on A string and then going down the neck), D# dim then D locrian, C# min7 then C# aeolian, B7 and then mixolydian, A add#11 (dunno if its correct name..just A major with #4 so it sounds lydian) and then lydian mode etc. etc. back to open E maj 7 on fat E string. This way all of the modes sound distinctive - at least to me:)

But not to hijack the thread - David Wallimans modal pentatonic series also can help you quite a bit with understanding how modes works smile.gif

This post has been edited by Jakub Luptovec: May 6 2009, 07:19 PM


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kjutte
post May 6 2009, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ May 6 2009, 08:18 PM) *
Well if much emphasis is not being put on that #4 (i.e. its not used as a last note for example, so the interval will ring strongly) its very hard to tell, if you are not equipped with a pair of very experienced ears..

Regarding that chords/scales debate, my way to study modes was to play E maj7 and then ionan mode (7th fret on A string and then going down the neck), D# dim then D locrian, C# min7 then C# aeolian, B7 and then mixolydian, A add#11 (dunno if its correct name..just A major with #4 so it sounds lydian) and then lydian mode etc. etc. back to open E maj 7 on fat E string. This way all of the modes sound distinctive - at least to me:)

But not to hijack the thread - David Wallimans modal pentatonic series also can help you quite a bit with understanding how modes works smile.gif


Relative modes are fine, but to really hear them sing I think it would be recommended to play non diatonic modulations.

IE

Cmaj C Ionian, C Mixolydian, C lydian
Cmin Phrygian, Dorian, Aeolian
Cdim Locrian

As I said, relative modes are fine, it could easily become a cadence and that steals some attention.
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Ivan Milenkovic
post May 6 2009, 07:33 PM
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It will be a lot easier to understand modes if you understand basic theory behind major scale.

Every major scale has a unique whole ste/half step layout, like this:

WWhWWWh

And modes are basically just 7 scales that you can build from notes of the major scale. Just start on any of the notes, follow the notes from major scale and go to that same note octave higher and you got yourself a new scale/mode

If you have C major scale

C - D - E = F - G - A - B = C (- being whole step, = being half step)

and start from D note and go to next D:

D - E = F - G - A - B = C - D

You will see that you get a completely new scale, D Dorian.

Same goes for every note, every note builds one scale, and every mode has unique sound.

SO you may wanna know how to use modes, well, first you have to learn them all well, and where they are on the fretboard. Then you will be able to use them. Lots of people start learning the modes, learn one pattern and they feel they don't know what to do next. The goal is simple: Learn the whole major scale pattern over the neck, and learn where are the modes in that pattern, and learn it well. This way you will understand much better how to use them, cause it makes no sense to explain the use of modes if you don't know where they are on the fretboard, it's too confusing.

In general, because every mode has it's own sound, they can be used in various ways to create certain atmosphere. But you cannot again use the modes if you don't learn major keys, modes within, and chords that are derived from those modes. Once you get over this big step, that's where the real fun starts, combining keys, use of strong notes, modal playing etc.

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: May 6 2009, 07:34 PM


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Muris Varajic
post May 6 2009, 10:06 PM
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Play all modes starting from the same note,
very cool approach to figure out formulas, hear difference etc.


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