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David Wallimann
post May 22 2009, 01:32 PM
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I've always been interested in programing stuff but don't know much about it.
Anyone making a living from that?
If so, what do you think I should start learning?
It seams that there are a lot of different languages out there.
I'm just thinking about a possible career move. Maybe going back to school...
Any thoughts? :-)


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Emir Hot
post May 22 2009, 01:49 PM
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I do programing for web. That includes PHP/MySQL, Javascript, XML etc... These are not real program languages but it's a great and creative job. They are called "scripting languages". You can make serious money if you become an expert as the web technologies are always needed. If you want to develop Windows applications that's even more money but that's more difficult to learn. You need "C" or "Java". I got addicted and really no time for guitar that much. Important thing is that you need to be up to date non-stop. If something new becomes a standard you have to learn it imediately as your current skills will last 3 more months and are not going to be needed anymore. 2 years course for these things would be a great investment but no way back smile.gif


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David Wallimann
post May 22 2009, 01:56 PM
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Thanks Emir, that sure sounds fun!
Let's say that I would like to start programming for the web, what should I start with?
Would it be beneficial to start learning on my own before starting school?


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Emir Hot
post May 22 2009, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE (David Wallimann @ May 22 2009, 01:56 PM) *
Thanks Emir, that sure sounds fun!
Let's say that I would like to start programming for the web, what should I start with?
Would it be beneficial to start learning on my own before starting school?


Of course, you need to learn everyday yourself. School is good for your CV and more chances to find a job.

Start with HTML(XHTML)/CSS. You need to learn this just like you know C major scale smile.gif After that move to PHP and MySQL for dynamic pages and databases. Then learn javascript and Ajax. Ajax is not a language but the technology that people use everyday more and more. I also suggest XML. You need good 2 years before you can move to some serious projects. This is a lot of material. Good luck smile.gif


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OrganisedConfusi...
post May 22 2009, 02:14 PM
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I second emir. Very sound advice. Start with html and css for basic web page design before moving onto more complicated stuff like php, javascript etc. I would say its useful to know html, css, dhtml. Those can be learnt simultaneously. Then learn one of php or asp. I recommend php. Then you can learn javascript. From this stage you can target your learning to more of what you want to get into.

Best of luck. Its always good to have new skills.


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David Wallimann
post May 22 2009, 02:15 PM
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Thanks Emir.
I found this website, it seems to teach you what you are talking about.
Could you take a look and tell me if you think that's a good start?
http://www.w3schools.com/


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AdamB
post May 22 2009, 02:19 PM
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I'm in programming. I'm a C++ developer though, so probably can't help with developing web content. However, I would say to look at example code, it's really useful to look at the way someone else has come and designed something. I found memorizing the languages handbook and then taking example codes and bending them to do something different is the best way to learn for me.
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post May 22 2009, 02:19 PM
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That is a great place to start David. It is where I started to learn from.


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purple hayes
post May 22 2009, 02:24 PM
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I hear Fortran is hot right now.

/unless you want to get involved in a world that changes almost daily, I'd stay away from programming.

//That's why I like music. The major scale will be WWHWWWH until the day I die. After that you can change it. tongue.gif


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Emir Hot
post May 22 2009, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (David Wallimann @ May 22 2009, 02:15 PM) *
Thanks Emir.
I found this website, it seems to teach you what you are talking about.
Could you take a look and tell me if you think that's a good start?
http://www.w3schools.com/


Yes David, that's an awesome place for the start smile.gif There are many useful video tutorials as well. You can find all levels

http://css-tricks.com/
http://net.tutsplus.com/



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jafomatic
post May 22 2009, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE (David Wallimann @ May 22 2009, 08:15 AM) *
Thanks Emir.
I found this website, it seems to teach you what you are talking about.
Could you take a look and tell me if you think that's a good start?
http://www.w3schools.com/


The W3 is a consortium that sets web standards. That's a good place to start in that you're going to learn everything that is (currently) in total compliance with standards. The downside is that it could be a little bit of overload.

Before diving into HTML, which is markup, or PHP which is closer to real programming, I think you should ask yourself this: are you wanting to make a living or make something that's already on your mind? I ask this because I've known quite a few programmers that have struggled when they're not feeling "creatively fulfilled."

I've been coding (programming) for all the years that I wasn't playing guitar. As you are the reason that I was able to find GMC, I already feel that I owe you one. Please feel free to ask me anything in PM if you like; I've known lots and lots of other programmers over the years and I'm more than willing to offer whatever advice I can.

Edit: You are also welcome to contact me my email address; you have it via my user account (jafomatic) on your website.

This post has been edited by jafomatic: May 22 2009, 02:46 PM


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David Wallimann
post May 22 2009, 02:48 PM
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That's great advice.
My main motivation is sadly to make a living.
Music is and always will be part of my life, but sadly I can't seem to make ends meet...
I feel like I'm constantly working but at the end of the month I just barely make it...


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jafomatic
post May 22 2009, 02:55 PM
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I would agree then with Emir's advice, if I read it correctly, which was PHP and SQL first and foremost. There are a number of benefits to this, in no particular order:

- Logic is logic. Once you become comfortable with the application of logic, the difference between languages will be reduced mostly to syntax. Similar to a different fingering for the same piece of music, so to speak.

- PHP and SQL are available all over the place in the form of cheap (sometimes even free) web hosting, or free and open-source tools that you can download and learn/test on your on computer.

- PHP and SQL are powerful enough for many many many web-based applications. This forum looks to me like a vBulletin product which is built entirely in php and driven by a brand of SQL called mySQL.

Once you're comfortable with the concepts of programming, then you can delve into other languages and environments that allow you access to the old-school lower-level concepts which aren't quite as easy to grasp nor as necessary to learn.

All that aside, it would likely not be a very quick or efficient change in career. Are you going to be able to hold on through a potentially-slow learning curve?



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David Wallimann
post May 22 2009, 03:10 PM
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Hehe!
I don't know.. I'm just a little freaked out right now I think...
Just thinking about what my next move should be.
I will probably give it a try first. Learn a little and see if I like it or not I guess...


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vampire18
post May 22 2009, 03:22 PM
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im only highschool taught and i got an offer to make a 2500$ website so it is most of the time highly paid.(btw didnt take the job, too much responsibility, they wanted me to make a web site/program that should be used to run a shipping harbor turn from afar)
but it needs to be a pation, if you dont have that magical thing that attracts you to it it can be deadly boring.
anyways in web site design i would say that 90% of the work at least for me was the user interface or what you see on screen and the backing code which is the more mathematical part was 10%. i would recommend web site design like java.net or c#.net because it seems everything is going that way.
if you work for a computer company its boring but if you fly solo and make websites for people or stores, from what i encountered they barely know what they want and you have a lot of free hand so its more interesting IMO


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jafomatic
post May 22 2009, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE (David Wallimann @ May 22 2009, 09:10 AM) *
Hehe!
I don't know.. I'm just a little freaked out right now I think...
Just thinking about what my next move should be.
I will probably give it a try first. Learn a little and see if I like it or not I guess...



Even more reason to start out using php & sql to generate HTML. The "cost of entry" is extremely low in terms of cash (free if we look around some) and also in terms of time (easy stuff to learn).



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Keilnoth
post May 22 2009, 03:26 PM
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I would suggest, if you're going to make it a living, to learn basic algorithmic with a more basic language like C or C++, before you start with PHP. You can do that with PHP but you will have to struggle with a web server, browser, configuration, etc...

I think that learning programming from PHP won't tell you the truth about what a variable, a pointer, how the memory is used, etc... The C language is really the root language.

About 10 years ago, I started with that kind of book : http://www.amazon.com/Sams-Teach-Yourself-...1612&sr=8-2

After you finish that book, you will know everything about a programming language, a variable, a class, an object, a loop, etc... And your mind will be open to learn and understand any other language. smile.gif

Then, you can switch to PHP or Java and the web. You should probably learn more complex algorithmic, like sorting algorithms, recursion, iteration, etc... as well.

I think that way you will become a good developer. It's like playing guitar. You can learn a song and play it well but if you do not understand the scales, the notes or the chords then you are still a bad player. smile.gif

I'll happy to help if you need anything. I've been a pro developer for more than 10 years now. I wish I started learning guitar at the same time I've learned coding. tongue.gif


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David Wallimann
post May 22 2009, 03:29 PM
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Ok, I am now officially overwhelmed by all the info! :-)
Seems like basically I could start anywhere, right?


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Nadir
post May 22 2009, 03:30 PM
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I work in software development for about three years after I graduated. I started programming in Pascal and C (on university), and later I learned C++ and Java. Most of time I worked on real time software which is written in pure C++, sometimes even C. In my opinion best approach would be to start with procedural programming languages (because of the syntax C would be best choice) and then upgrade with object oriented programming (in start C++ and later JAVA). This is slow way because in the beginning you won't be able to make almost anything. But it will help you to start thinking like a programmer and (after some time programming in C++) to start thinking object oriented way. This will much help later in software design and development. All those languages (C,C++,JAVA,C#) have very similar syntax, and it will not look like learning something completely new, more like upgrading your knowledge.

Later you can easily switch to any specific technology (Web Services, ASP .NET, PHP, script languages etc.) You have many things today already made in some libraries and you just need to use them.

Also you can learn something about relational databases basics (to know what is entity, table, relation, types of relations) and of course SQL language used for data description and manipulation. After you know this you will be able to easier learn MySQL, Oracle, MS SQL server (or any other specific DBMS you have need to know).

Of course you dont have to learn all of this before you start makeing money of it. It will come depending on what you need in particular moment.

Happy learning

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jafomatic
post May 22 2009, 03:33 PM
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While it's true that C is the root language, it also contains a lot of overhead that can be both overwhelming and (in current state of the art) less frequently used. I would compare PHP to the simple triad chords, open strings, and basic notes while comparing C to the major scale, the modes extracted from it, and the actual frequencies in kilohertz to which the notes correspond.

I'd also agree that it's easier to download and use a compiler for C, the actual lessons learned would be of less immediate value while someone is still learning. With so much emphasis on java and microsoft's C#, when is the last time you needed to refer to memory by address?

I would learn C after PHP, many of the tokens are similar and the logic will behave the same way throughout. Think of it as learning to walk before learning to fly.


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