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> Lydian Mode?
Andrew Cockburn
post Feb 11 2007, 02:09 AM
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Amongst all my other practice, I am trying to figure out modes so that I can incorporate them in my playing - they have been, so far, incomprehensible to me. Today, I was working on a solo and I decided to analyze it in modal terms to see what I came up with - could someone check me on this to see if I have finally opened a crack of understanding ? blink.gif

So, I was playing a chord sequence of Am7-Gmaj7-Am7-Gmaj7, and using a G major scale over both chords. So, G major scale on a Gmaj7 chord is Ionian - no surprises there. However, the same scale over an Am7 is Lydian I think, my reasoning is as follows:

A is the relative minor of C, so I am in effect playing a G scale over a chord of C (kind of). The C-G interval is a 4th, making the mode Lydian ... does that make any sense at all, or have I completely misunderstood modes again??? If the above is correct, is it a rule that you always use majors to figure the interval (e.g. C instead of Am)? If I didn't do that I'd end up with a 6th interval, making it Aeolian which I'm pretty sure it isn't.

And a related question - is the Aeolian mode the same as a relative minor for a particular chord?

Thanks for any enlightenment!


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Tank
post Feb 11 2007, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 11 2007, 03:09 AM) *
......
So, I was playing a chord sequence of Am7-Gmaj7-Am7-Gmaj7, and using a G major scale over both chords. So, G major scale on a Gmaj7 chord is Ionian - no surprises there. However, the same scale over an Am7 is Lydian I think, my reasoning is as follows:

A is the relative minor of C, so I am in effect playing a G scale over a chord of C (kind of). The C-G interval is a 4th, making the mode Lydian ... does that make any sense at all, or have I completely misunderstood modes again??? If the above is correct, is it a rule that you always use majors to figure the interval (e.g. C instead of Am)? If I didn't do that I'd end up with a 6th interval, making it Aeolian which I'm pretty sure it isn't.

And a related question - is the Aeolian mode the same as a relative minor for a particular chord?

Thanks for any enlightenment!


You are correct in assuming that the G relates as Ionian to it's root chord Gmaj(7). However, when you move to Am7, it's actually Dorian.

The G scale would work over Cmaj7 as Lydian, as you've worked out, but Am7 (G scale) has a flavour of its own, as Am7 is the 2nd degree of the harmonised G scale.

In G Major, playing the G Major scale (G A B C D E F#), you'll get these associations over the relevant chords:

Gmaj7 - Ionian
Am7 - Dorian
Bm7 - Phrygian
Cmaj7 - Lydian
D7 (Dominant 7th) - Mixolydian
Em7 - Aeolian (Natural Minor)
F# Diminished - Locrian

As you can see, you are correct about Aeolian being the natural minor.

Hope I haven't confused the situation!

/T
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brainlesswonder
post Feb 11 2007, 04:24 PM
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can I get the English version of that? Isn't dorian the car from back to the future? tongue.gif
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Andrew Cockburn
post Feb 11 2007, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (brainlesswonder @ Feb 11 2007, 10:24 AM) *
can I get the English version of that? Isn't dorian the car from back to the future? tongue.gif


Nah, I thought it was a Ford Mixolydian wink.gif

Thanks for taking the time to respond Tank, that was actually extremely helpful as you pointed out what I was doing wrong - I was going from the chord to the scale instead of the other way around, which was why none of this made any sense !

So if I turn it around and always start with a chord of G(something), the scales would become:

Chord - Scale - Mode

G - G - Ionian
Gm7 - F - Dorian
Gm7 - D# - Phrygian
Gmaj7 - D - Lydian
G7 - C - Mixolydian
Gm7 - A# - Aeolian
Gdim - G# - Locrian

Does that look right?

And another question is, going back to the original example, and playing in the scale of G at all times. If the chord sequence went G-Em-Am-D (that old 50s - 60s classic) would I be playing Ionian-Aeolian-Dorian-Mixolydian? Or to put it another way, when thinking in modes, is it usual to find that a given progression works through several modes in this way? Or is it more usual that you would change the scale to follow the chords?

Thanks!

This post has been edited by Andrew Cockburn: Feb 11 2007, 04:37 PM


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Tank
post Feb 11 2007, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 11 2007, 05:29 PM) *
Nah, I thought it was a Ford Mixolydian wink.gif

.....
So if I turn it around and always start with a chord of G(something), the scales would become:

Chord - Scale - Mode

G - G - Ionian
Gm7 - F - Dorian
Gm7 - D# - Phrygian
Gmaj7 - D - Lydian
G7 - C - Mixolydian
Gm7 - A# - Aeolian
Gdim - G# - Locrian

Does that look right?

And another question is, going back to the original example, and playing in the scale of G at all times. If the chord sequence went G-Em-Am-D (that old 50s - 60s classic) would I be playing Ionian-Aeolian-Dorian-Mixolydian? Or to put it another way, when thinking in modes, is it usual to find that a given progression works through several modes in this way? Or is it more usual that you would change the scale to follow the chords?

Thanks!


You've got it, your chords - scales is correct. (Took me a few minutes to think it through!!!).

As to your second question, you are right, if you were using the G-Em-Am-D and played G major all the way through, you'd be passing through all those modes as the chords changed. It can be a way of soloing, but it can become limited eventually. Personally I've started to change the scale as the chords change, which gives much more variety, (and a load more to think about/go wrong!!)

/T
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Pavel
post Feb 11 2007, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (brainlesswonder @ Feb 11 2007, 04:24 PM) *
can I get the English version of that? Isn't dorian the car from back to the future? tongue.gif


No - the car is DeLorean! What a nice car! wink.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Feb 11 2007, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Tank @ Feb 11 2007, 12:02 PM) *
You've got it, your chords - scales is correct. (Took me a few minutes to think it through!!!).

As to your second question, you are right, if you were using the G-Em-Am-D and played G major all the way through, you'd be passing through all those modes as the chords changed. It can be a way of soloing, but it can become limited eventually. Personally I've started to change the scale as the chords change, which gives much more variety, (and a load more to think about/go wrong!!)

/T


Fantastic - I'm finally understanding!

Now I need to play in all the modes for several years so I can feel them instead of just write them down in a post ;-)

Actually, thinking about it a little more as I write this, I am now realizing that up until now I have, without knowing it, been using the first approach of staying in scale and using a different mode when I could easily get away with it (Ionian, Aeolian, Mixolydian and a little Dorian), and switching scales instead of using some of the more esoteric modes. Wow, not only do I already know four modes, I can now describe what I have been doing all along in far more baffling terms tongue.gif

Thanks for the advice Tank - this thread has been really helpful to me. I've been baffled about modes for years, and I think it has finally clicked.


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Doofs
post Feb 15 2007, 01:59 AM
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This stuff is waaaaaay over my head, but just what I'm looking to learn....

Any suggestions on where to start guys?


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Andrew Cockburn
post Feb 15 2007, 02:32 AM
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QUOTE (Doofs @ Feb 14 2007, 07:59 PM) *
This stuff is waaaaaay over my head, but just what I'm looking to learn....

Any suggestions on where to start guys?


There was another thread about starting/reopening the theory board - a few of us were interested in asking questions and maybe posting articles/lessons, so one answer could be "watch this space"!

I think it would be good to build up some theory material for the site over time, and possibly some simple videos showing scales etc. When I get myself a little more organized I might have a go at putting some basic theory posts together, so let me know what would be helpful to you - I'm not an expert, but we can learn together, and there are plenty of people on this site who know a hell of a lot and can help with specific questions.

Apart from that, there are a number of explanations of modes in particular around the net - just google for "modes" and you should get a bunch. If modes are a little too much to pick up initially (I found them really hard for a long time), you can start with the theory of basic scales, and the CAGED system, which you need to understand anyway for modes to make sense.


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Doofs
post Feb 15 2007, 10:00 AM
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Cool, thanks mate...

Its hard to know what to search for!! lol


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Zee Deveel
post Feb 15 2007, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Feb 11 2007, 03:29 PM) *
Chord - Scale - Mode

G - G - Ionian
Gm7 - F - Dorian
Gm7 - D# - Phrygian
Gmaj7 - D - Lydian
G7 - C - Mixolydian
Gm7 - A# - Aeolian
Gdim - G# - Locrian
Thanks!

Shouldn't this be:

G - G - Ionian
Gm7 - A - Dorian
Gm7 - B - Phrygian
Gmaj7 - C - Lydian
G7 - D - Mixolydian
Gm7 - E - Aeolian
Gdim - F# - Locrian

?


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Andrew Cockburn
post Feb 15 2007, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (Zee Deveel @ Feb 15 2007, 06:11 AM) *
Shouldn't this be:

G - G - Ionian
Gm7 - A - Dorian
Gm7 - B - Phrygian
Gmaj7 - C - Lydian
G7 - D - Mixolydian
Gm7 - E - Aeolian
Gdim - F# - Locrian

?


No, I don't think so - the way you have it is going from scale to chord, I was going the other way .(i.e. backwards)

So, taking Mixolydian as an example, in tanks post he said G - Cmaj7 (scale of G, chord of Cmaj7) would be Mixolydian, I wanted to do it backwards and keep G7 as the chord. The question then becomes, what base scale has a G 4 intervals up from it? The answer is D.


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Zee Deveel
post Feb 15 2007, 04:07 PM
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Ahh right sorry was being stupid. I was thinking of this:

Gmaj - G - Ionian
Gmaj - A - Dorian
Gmaj - B - Phrygian
Gmaj - C - Lydian
Gmaj - D - Mixolydian
Gmaj - E - Aeolian
Gmaj - F# - Locrian


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