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> Just Out Of Curiosity..
steve25
post Jun 4 2009, 11:33 PM
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I think its fair to say I have 2 main favourite styles of music (unsubgenred). That is Metal and Classical. I love guitar and its my favourite instrument i can't imagine not playing it now. And i also love the sound of an orchestra as well. So because of this i'm learning to play guitar and compose for an orchestra at the same time (makes sense doesn't it?)

I do find both very difficult though but at least with guitar i know how to improve and stuff its a lot harder to work everything out by ear or at least for me when its a huge orchestra. So my first question is really how important is theory when composing? And if its really important in what way and how is it applied?

Also i was just wondering does anyone here compose for an orchestra? And if so where did you start and how did you improve? Also if you'd like to or are getting into it let me know perhaps we can collaborate sometime and improve together.

I hope to eventually become good at both so i can play multiple styles. My favourite band at the moment is Opeth so i'd love to play that style. I've also been getting into a lot of doom and gothic sort of styles lately so i like to learn that. But i often hear how i can usee that style with these new styles that i've gotten into.

I don't want to use guitar and classical in a cheesey kind of way not like how Yngwie and Steve Vai use it don't get me wrong they're great musicians and stuff but i can't help but to feel like they "forced" it into their live shows like its not supposed to belong there. However some stuff is great like the score Michael Kamen did for the S&M album with Metallica i thought was brilliant.

So again out of curiosity anyone into the same stuff as me? Out of the 2 metal still wins for me but i'm now into 2 styles which years ago i never thought i'd get into. Its an amazing feeling when that happens and to be honest i love a good suprise smile.gif
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David Wallimann
post Jun 4 2009, 11:40 PM
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There was a Music Institute ad a while back that said something like:
"You've got to know the rules in order to break them"...
I think that resumes pretty well my view on theory.

I don't think you should actively use theory while writing original music. The theory just kind of helps your ear know what sound comfortable. Don't get me wrong, theory is necessary, but only in the sense that it trains your ears and gives you options.

I mostly use theory rules when I am stuck in my writing process. It can help you modulate to new keys and from there expand your ideas. I hope these thoughts clarify things a bit!


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steve25
post Jun 4 2009, 11:51 PM
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Thanks David, i don't think it'd hurt me to get into a bit more theory anyway. I mean i do know some but i'm no expert or anything however i could hold my own in a discussion haha. I definetly need to improve more on ear training as well i think
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Muris Varajic
post Jun 5 2009, 12:24 AM
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You should learn theory, theory nicely explains everything you hear
and helps to understand what comes to you from outside
AND what comes from you as well!!
That's composing, you hear melody/harmony in your mind
and you instantly know what is it, you can transpose it to any key etc.
Now, writing for real orchestra demands some other type of knowledge,
knowing all instruments in orchestra, notes range for each, clefs and on and on.
That is heavy one and will take you pretty lot of time.
Instead of learning all those specs about orchestra instruments
I suggest you to get some nice VST with orchestra sounds,
use your ear and theory knowledge to compose some pieces, it's fun. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Muris Varajic: Jun 5 2009, 12:24 AM


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steve25
post Jun 5 2009, 12:30 AM
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Hey Muris yeah i already use VST for that so i have all the instruments and what not but i still think its important to know how to play each of those ie not making one instrument play a chord on its own because thats impossible instead it has to be spread out.

Just an out of topic thing here but, what is a music matrix and how does it work? http://musictheory.net/utilities/html/id98_en.html
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Muris Varajic
post Jun 5 2009, 12:43 AM
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QUOTE (steve25 @ Jun 5 2009, 01:30 AM) *
Hey Muris yeah i already use VST for that so i have all the instruments and what not but i still think its important to know how to play each of those ie not making one instrument play a chord on its own because thats impossible instead it has to be spread out.

Just an out of topic thing here but, what is a music matrix and how does it work? http://musictheory.net/utilities/html/id98_en.html


I checked link but I have no idea what is it for, never mind. biggrin.gif

Here are few hints about orchestra instruments,
you should play only ONE note per instruments (tuba, oboe, clarinet, trumpet etc),
you can play 1, 2 or even more notes on string instruments ( violin, viola, cello etc).
Those are some basic rules about how those instruments work,
rest of it is pretty much up to you and your ears. smile.gif


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steve25
post Jun 5 2009, 01:10 AM
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I've just found out by chance that this matrix thing is all to do with serial music. I get how this works now but there's one thing i don't understand and thats how you get to your initial 12 prime notes because you never compose with all 12 notes not usually
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Muris Varajic
post Jun 5 2009, 01:28 AM
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QUOTE (steve25 @ Jun 5 2009, 02:10 AM) *
I've just found out by chance that this matrix thing is all to do with serial music. I get how this works now but there's one thing i don't understand and thats how you get to your initial 12 prime notes because you never compose with all 12 notes not usually


You can compose with all 12 notes very easily,
even within one key, any key.
You use other notes (out of key) as passing or neighbor notes, pretty simple. smile.gif


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steve25
post Jun 5 2009, 11:13 AM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jun 5 2009, 01:28 AM) *
You can compose with all 12 notes very easily,
even within one key, any key.
You use other notes (out of key) as passing or neighbor notes, pretty simple. smile.gif


Give me an example of a piece of music that does. I've never heard a melody line that used all 12 notes, or a chord progression that used 12 notes. Generally the maximum you have in a key is 7 notes and now and then 8. Of course this excludes modulation.

Actually i tell a lie i have heard something that used all 12 notes but to be honest with you it sounded awful
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Pedja Simovic
post Jun 5 2009, 11:16 AM
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QUOTE (steve25 @ Jun 5 2009, 12:13 PM) *
Give me an example of a piece of music that does. I've never heard a melody line that used all 12 notes, or a chord progression that used 12 notes. Generally the maximum you have in a key is 7 notes and now and then 8. Of course this excludes modulation.

Actually i tell a lie i have heard something that used all 12 notes but to be honest with you it sounded awful



Flight of the Bumblebee? smile.gif


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steve25
post Jun 5 2009, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jun 5 2009, 11:16 AM) *
Flight of the Bumblebee? smile.gif


Never heard it ill search for it thanks
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Pedja Simovic
post Jun 5 2009, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE (steve25 @ Jun 5 2009, 12:43 PM) *
Never heard it ill search for it thanks





Here you go ! smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Jun 5 2009, 01:02 PM
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Or even better, Muris' take smile.gif



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David Wallimann
post Jun 5 2009, 03:42 PM
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Haha!
Great take!


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Muris Varajic
post Jun 5 2009, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE (steve25 @ Jun 5 2009, 12:13 PM) *
Give me an example of a piece of music that does. I've never heard a melody line that used all 12 notes, or a chord progression that used 12 notes. Generally the maximum you have in a key is 7 notes and now and then 8. Of course this excludes modulation.

Actually i tell a lie i have heard something that used all 12 notes but to be honest with you it sounded awful


It doesn't have to be chromatic note by note at all.
Per example, lets say we are in key of Em so we use Em minor scale.
And progression is something like Em, C, Am, D and Bm.
Em minor scale has notes E, F#, G, A, B, C and D
so we need few more to cover all 12.
F note can be played over Bm chord as a lead to F# which is strong note.
G# note would work nicely over Am chord as a lead to A note, strong note.
Bb(A#) note works fine over Em or Bm, it leads to B note which is strong one.
C# note leads to D so you can use it over D or Bm chord.
D# note obviously leads to E so it'd work fine over root chord, Em chord.
D, D# and E is tiny chromatic line and I'm sure you've played similar lick many times.
Once more, this approach is just on passing notes but it still covers all 12.
You can put all 12 notes in progression as well
but most likely it'd sound a bit jazzy.
And it can be done within one key with couple of altered chords of course. smile.gif


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Vasilije Vukmiro...
post Jun 5 2009, 04:23 PM
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I think that the most important issue is to listen classical music, you will then spontaneously know what work and what not. Without good ear, that is useless. So, first thing first. Train your ear. Listen to some classical pieces, and transcribe it. This alsone will "sharpen" your hearing tremendously. Basically, if being able to compose good pop songs will also help you, I mean both styles share same scales and chords. Also, I would recommend you to learn some classical pieces, whole songs, to learn t play it. Arrangements for classical guitar as well as solo stuff, like Cacaphony, Malmsteen and such...


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