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> A Question For The Serbian Members And Instructors, something about a new law for music, is this true?
Ivan Milenkovic
post Jul 1 2009, 12:46 AM
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Pedja let me ask you this: You speak of mainstream folk music with a great critique which I can understand why I have no problem with your attitude at all. But what about rock music? Are you into rock music? Cause most rock hits also have couple of chords and very simple rhtyhmic patterns. What do you think for example of rock or pop music or Serbia? It is simplified, but I haven't seen any argument that doesn't make it any different of the folk music, based solely on your music theory-driven standpoint of view.

This post has been edited by Ivan Milenkovic: Jul 1 2009, 12:48 AM


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Bogdan Radovic
post Jul 1 2009, 12:50 AM
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Here are some examples smile.gif

Ultra famous folk song : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mYzPQuU2sI...feature=related
live version of the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmBMYm_JXmQ

Ultra famous rock song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duqxlFZ2kd0





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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 1 2009, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (Bogdan Radovic @ Jul 1 2009, 01:34 AM) *
Hmm that may be as well isolated case smile.gif Did it happen to you on every jazz concert you saw in Serbia? On concerts I attended (jazz and similar genres) audience was pleased and was clapping and shouting after solos and everything.I mean people that like jazz bought the tickets and had fun and respect for the gig...

edit:

My remark on dancing was mainly on the point - you can't dance to a crazy syncopated groove and solo. You can but not many people can smile.gif
That reminded me of Chad Smith at modern drummer festival. Every drummer was doing some crazy sticking and drums solos, all over the place, really fast and impressive but not groovy. And what he did, instead of playing such solo he just played one simple funky straightforward beat for the whole 5 minutes and crowd loved it! After he explained his stand on importance of groove etc.



Bogdan, Branford Marsalis is something in Jazz music. I don't care about other examples. I went to Pat Metheny in Belgrade and it was contrasting to other performances I saw him in USA. Same thing man.
When I used to play with my band I always talk to my friends who come to gigs and tell them about that stuff. I would burn them live recordings or videos of performances so they can somehow try to understand difference between Classical music performance and Jazz or any other contemporary music performance. This is one of the things audience lacks and I mentioned others in previous posts.
Regarding dancing on crazy grooves smile.gif Lets face it, drummer was not soloing, Vasil was doing it and after him Samardzic did it. Drums were still playing SIMPLE groove that you can tap your foot to and dance normally.
The problem is people go crazy when they hear 123 12 12 or 12 12 123 at fast tempo. They just can't get out of that. 4/4 feels like a virus to them, especially if you add anticipations to the beat in keyboards, bass or drums smile.gif

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Jul 1 2009, 01:46 AM) *
Pedja let me ask you this: You speak of mainstream folk music with a great critique which I can understand why I have no problem with your attitude at all. But what about rock music? Are you into rock music? Cause most rock hits also have couple of chords and very simple rhtyhmic patterns. What do you think for example of rock or pop music or Serbia? It is simplified, but I haven't seen any argument that doesn't make it any different of the folk music, based solely on your music theory-driven standpoint of view.


Ivan for starters, Rock music is already more pleasant to listen simply because singers don't sing out of pitch as often as they do in folk music. Thats my 1st and main argument. 2nd argument would be there is way less trills happening. 3rd would be it has much wider tonality and modal applications. 4th argument is instrumentation and arrangements that are way more creative and pleasant for the ear than turbo folk that irritates my ear when I hear it smile.gif
I can go on and give you more examples why Rock over turbo folk but I hope its obvious by things I mentioned above why these two can't be compared in any way.

QUOTE (Bogdan Radovic @ Jul 1 2009, 01:50 AM) *
Here are some examples smile.gif

Ultra famous folk song : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mYzPQuU2sI...feature=related
live version of the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmBMYm_JXmQ

Ultra famous rock song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duqxlFZ2kd0


Joe Satriani's "I believe" rip off (sort of) biggrin.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jul 1 2009, 01:00 AM
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How bout some good quality folk songs where good singers and musicians perform?


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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 1 2009, 01:01 AM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Jul 1 2009, 02:00 AM) *
How bout some good quality folk songs where good singers and musicians perform?


Yeah Bogdan, give us some smile.gif

I am thinking old school, things with limited instrumentation and traditional songs.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jul 1 2009, 01:24 AM
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Ok check out this one for example:



Now, is there something musically wrong with this song, for example that you relate with some rock song?


QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jul 1 2009, 01:56 AM) *
Rock music is already more pleasant to listen simply because singers don't sing out of pitch as often as they do in folk music. Thats my 1st and main argument.
Well that is I'm afraid not true. There are a lot of great folk singers that can sing perfectly in pitch, and I have certainly heard lots of rock artists that sing out of pitch as well.

2nd argument would be there is way less trills happening.
I don't see how this has anything to do with the quality of the music?

3rd would be it has much wider tonality and modal applications.
Not true. Most famous rock songs are in one key, often featuring only couple of chords.

4th argument is instrumentation and arrangements that are way more creative and pleasant for the ear than turbo folk that irritates my ear when I hear it smile.gif
Well, I think it depends what you consider turbo folk and what not?



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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 1 2009, 01:33 AM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Jul 1 2009, 02:11 AM) *
Ok check out this one for example:



Now, is there something musically wrong with this song, for example that you relate with some rock song?


Ok Ivan lets say couple of things first...
You want me to compare this with Rock song but we started with Blues and Jazz first. After I gave you all the arguments for Jazz music now we are onto Rock. I also gave you some examples why I prefer rock over turbo folk....

This song first of all is not turbo folk that I don't like. Nevertheless, it has things that I don't like and find irritating to my ear.
Here are some things I will mention :

1) Accordion and typical instrumentation follows the voice in the VERSE and CHORUS. She can sing and doesn't sing out of tune but that arranging trick is just annoying since you hear it in every single track.
2) Intro Verse and Chorus use exact same transitions , instrumentation and lines. In other words there is no creativity nor FILLS in the harmony or melodic fills. Its exact same repetition over and over. This supports my argument that its overly simplified and mimics the singer voice so people with badly trained ear can immediately get hooked and respond to it.
3) Song has great melody but it lacks peaks in it. Simplicity of the arrangement , instrumentation, lack of fells made this song to sound like a straight line to me. Sure its a famous song, and sure people in Serbia know about it, but lets compare this well known song to one well known Rock song (since you wanted me to compare with Rock music).




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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jul 1 2009, 01:48 AM
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I don't feel this discussion is going in the right direction after posting Sweet Child Of Mine as comparison here, but it's OK, I understand your attitude on this one. Sorry for going off topic, we were talking about Serbian music scene and somehow drifted away from that territory.


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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 1 2009, 02:02 AM
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Do I really need to compare and analyze Serbian folk song to Sweet child of mine ?
I think G'N'R members would find it a bit insulting but whatever.

Listen to the intro of the song, guitar intro followed by added instrumentation. Thats called development, real natural development!

Check out Verse, notice how drums fill every 4 to 8 bars or so. Notice how guitar is not doing same thing over and over. Most important thing, notice how singer doesn't have anybody following his voice with instruments!!! Their are all doing different things but yet they all sound together in harmony.

Check out modulation and key change. Its power chords but Slash is doing intro guitar riff transposed and developed as he describes full chords. Notice how Axel sings his thing while all of this is happening. True counterpoint !!!

What about various solos ? Development, different endings and repetition. What about modulation solo ?
How about some guitar effect change ?

All this falls under orchestration and arranging Ivan and is essential towards making music.
I can write you pages of analyzing bit it still wouldn't matter because at the end of the day if you like that folk song you like it. Again, I am just trying to explain how Serbian turbo folk music is overly simplified in order. This results (in long run) for audience to have totally untrained ears, musicians finishing high schools and faculty and still playing this sort of music.
I hope by now with differences between those two songs you realize the creativity, arrangement, orchestration, solo , improvisation , development and repetition factor in Sweet child of mine vs Serbian folk song.

This is why Sweet child of mine is known everywhere in the world but Serbian folk song stays in Serbian and perhaps some of our neighbour countries.


Again, this is not supposed to be compared. I can just tell you bottom line for me : My musically trained ear doesn't appreciates trills, out of tune singing, oversimplified arrangements, no solos/improvisations, straight line tunes with no peaks !

I want to hear intro development outro. I want to hear ideas in all instruments, so my ear can be like Wow bass part is equally cool as keyboard part, and same goes for melody and solos etc.

Hope that makes sense now .

QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Jul 1 2009, 02:48 AM) *
I don't feel this discussion is going in the right direction after posting Sweet Child Of Mine as comparison here, but it's OK, I understand your attitude on this one. Sorry for going off topic, we were talking about Serbian music scene and somehow drifted away from that territory.


I just read this seconds after I posted my response.

No problem, we are just making discussion about things. It can't be a bad thing anyways smile.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jul 1 2009, 02:04 AM
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As I said, I don't feel that this discussion is going in the right direction, I really don't need any analysis myself I believe everybody is entitled to it's own opinion, and I respect everybody's else here. Sorry again for the offtopic but I think we drifted from the main territory here.
I also feel that some things from your previous post are a bit too aggressive and probably not fairly accurate like the things about me liking folk music, but I don't want to put it in any negative context of course, you have a right for your opinion and I respect your musical knowledge but I don't appreciate the attitude really. Cheers man, I hope everything is OK and you don't find this post insulting or anything that I wrote before this, I'm trying to keep things conversation honest.


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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 1 2009, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Jul 1 2009, 03:04 AM) *
As I said, I don't feel that this discussion is going in the right direction, I really don't need any analysis myself I believe everybody is entitled to it's own opinion, and I respect everybody's else here. Sorry again for the offtopic but I think we drifted from the main territory here.
I also feel that some things from your previous post are a bit too aggressive and probably not fairly accurate like the things about me liking folk music, but I don't want to put it in any negative context of course, you have a right for your opinion and I respect your musical knowledge but I don't appreciate the attitude really. Cheers man, I hope everything is OK and you don't find this post insulting or anything that I wrote before this, I'm trying to keep things conversation honest.


Hehe Ivan I didn't mean to insult you. You asked me for opinion and analyzing, I did that and now that it doesn't fit your thinking we don't have to argue smile.gif As you said everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I didn't say you like turbo folk , I said I don't mind you liking it nor anybody else. I don't and have my reasons that I can demonstrate just like I did above.
You are right about discussion - it was about new music law and we somehow went into whole other area where we ended up comparing things that are crazy to compare!!!
Anyways, this is music website, it can't do any harm just make community stronger !


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jul 1 2009, 02:12 AM
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I'm very glad you feel this way now, cheers.


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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 1 2009, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Jul 1 2009, 03:12 AM) *
I'm very glad you feel this way now, cheers.


I felt like this from the start man, have nothing against you really.


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jul 1 2009, 02:18 AM
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OK, thanks! smile.gif


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skennington
post Jul 1 2009, 02:26 AM
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VERY GOOD discussion here guys, I have been following now for well over an hour. This is exactly how a discussion on a forum should be conducted, with tact and respect for each others opinions. Enjoyed it and learned quite a bit about your cultures music. Thanks guys! smile.gif


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Ivan Milenkovic
post Jul 1 2009, 02:34 AM
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Appreciate it man, thanks! smile.gif


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jdriver
post Jul 1 2009, 04:39 AM
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The Serbian's love of this turbo folk music is part of their ethnic identity and it's pretty much ingrained in their genes. It's exactly the same here in America where Mexican descendants go crazy whenever they hear mariachi type music, even if it's highly stylized to update it, it still has the polka accordions all over the place. You hear nothing but that style on the Spanish speaking radio stations all over America. The love of this music gets passed from one generation to the next.

There is nothing at all wrong with this, like I said, it's heritage. But in both Serbian (Balkan generally speaking) and Mexican, if you go back to the orginal forms of the songs, they are quite beautiful.

And I agree with Pedja, for me the mariachi music is so repetitive as to be unlistenable. I consider it "junk", but of course it's not. I'm just not wired to respond to that kind of musical structure. And it's really strange how close cultures can be geographically and yet be so different in musical taste. Western Europe went crazy for Jazz in the 1900s just like America did. Mexico is right next to Cuba, and Cuban music is totally different and wonderful, as in Buena Vista Social Club, and there is a good example of going back to the origins of the folk music.

But the French gave us Debussy, America gave us George Gershwin and Robert Johnson, and I think the lesson we can take from all this is....

POLKA SOUNDING MUSIC CAUSES BRAIN DAMAGE! laugh.gif


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post Jul 1 2009, 06:15 AM
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post Jul 1 2009, 10:01 AM
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Now that was an interesting topic and discussion ... !!!

Finally some music and song analysis here at GMC. Would not have thought it will kick off with turbo folk, but it's a beginning ... laugh.gif

Thank you guys !!!


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Muris Varajic
post Jul 1 2009, 10:06 AM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jul 1 2009, 03:02 AM) *
Do I really need to compare and analyze Serbian folk song to Sweet child of mine ?
I think G'N'R members would find it a bit insulting but whatever.


Hard to tell man, perhaps they would find Seka Aleksic quite...interesting. laugh.gif


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