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> Play And Rest Collaboration, In class type collaboration #5
Pedja Simovic
post Jul 10 2009, 02:40 AM
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QUOTE (wrk @ Jul 9 2009, 11:36 PM) *
Makes sense ... thanks smile.gif
Will be fun .. one bar seems to be short to play something, but really long for a break and still keep it overall connected smile.gif. Great concept !!


Great Andy !
I look forward hearing where your phrases will start and end in that one bar space. It is also essential to make music with this concept so keep that in mind always smile.gif

QUOTE (skennington @ Jul 10 2009, 03:37 AM) *
Pedja, are you going to open an upload thread? Or should we upload here?


Upload thread is created, you can upload your take HERE


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Matt23
post Jul 10 2009, 09:42 AM
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If there's room I'd like to have a go at this.
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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 10 2009, 11:21 AM
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QUOTE (Matt23 @ Jul 10 2009, 10:42 AM) *
If there's room I'd like to have a go at this.


I will add you to the list Matt no worries smile.gif


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wrk
post Jul 10 2009, 11:42 AM
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Pedja, i have a question concerning naming chords how you used them in this progression. Basic question, but i'm often not sure .. smile.gif

When you write chords like Gmin add9 .. is this the same as Gm9? Basically it's the same, but is the use of "add" a kind of hint to keep the complete Gmin triad and add the extension, in this case the 9th/A ?

If it would be a Gm7/9 chord, often the 3rd or 5th is not played .. thats why i ask if there is a difference to use "add" here or not.


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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 10 2009, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE (wrk @ Jul 10 2009, 12:42 PM) *
Pedja, i have a question concerning naming chords how you used them in this progression. Basic question, but i'm often not sure .. smile.gif

When you write chords like Gmin add9 .. is this the same as Gm9? Basically it's the same, but is the use of "add" a kind of hint to keep the complete Gmin triad and add the extension, in this case the 9th/A ?

If it would be a Gm7/9 chord, often the 3rd or 5th is not played .. thats why i ask if there is a difference to use "add" here or not.


Hey Andy, good questions and observation !

In G min add9 case it is actually different then Gmin9 smile.gif The reason for that is whenever we say G min9, it is considered that we have actually G min79! The same goes if I just wrote G min11. We just avoid writing all tensions with the chord. Correct way would then be Gmin7911! Too many symbols for somebody that sight reads and plays in real time. So we just use G min11 and player is supposed to know that tensions before with 7th are included.
In this particular case, I had G minor triad with 9th. Since we don't have 7th chord, we call this G min add9 smile.gif
Hope that makes sense smile.gif


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wrk
post Jul 10 2009, 12:14 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jul 10 2009, 01:03 PM) *
Hey Andy, good questions and observation !

In G min add9 case it is actually different then Gmin9 smile.gif The reason for that is whenever we say G min9, it is considered that we have actually G min79! The same goes if I just wrote G min11. We just avoid writing all tensions with the chord. Correct way would then be Gmin7911! Too many symbols for somebody that sight reads and plays in real time. So we just use G min11 and player is supposed to know that tensions before with 7th are included.
In this particular case, I had G minor triad with 9th. Since we don't have 7th chord, we call this G min add9 smile.gif
Hope that makes sense smile.gif

Ah, i see .. makes perfectly sense .. smile.gif
Thanks Pedja, ... once again, you should write a book !!



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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 10 2009, 12:15 PM
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QUOTE (wrk @ Jul 10 2009, 01:14 PM) *
Ah, i see .. makes perfectly sense .. smile.gif
Thanks Pedja, ... once again, you should write a book !!


Glad I could help Andy. It is one of my goals for sure !


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TheKeplerConject...
post Jul 11 2009, 01:42 AM
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Is it possible to squeeze me into this one? If not, I understand. Thanks!
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JamesT
post Jul 11 2009, 01:58 AM
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Glad to see the Auto-Signup for me. I'll give it my best.
The guidelines are awesome on this Pedja. Very interesting topic.
Jim.
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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 11 2009, 10:13 AM
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QUOTE (TheKeplerConjecture @ Jul 11 2009, 02:42 AM) *
Is it possible to squeeze me into this one? If not, I understand. Thanks!


You are in ! I just can't say no to you guys smile.gif

QUOTE (JamesT @ Jul 11 2009, 02:58 AM) *
Glad to see the Auto-Signup for me. I'll give it my best.
The guidelines are awesome on this Pedja. Very interesting topic.
Jim.
smile.gif


Glad you like it Jim. Let me know if you need anything !


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Caelumamittendum
post Jul 12 2009, 07:09 PM
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Hmm. Alright, I got something recorded now, but it's not very melodic, but I geuss it serves the purpose of the collaboration, though I'm bending the rules a little bit.

One thing that troubles me a bit regarding the melodic part of this is that playing something for one bar and then rest for one leaves you very little time to establish a melody (less than 2 seconds) and at least I find it difficult to establish a melody across a break of one bar and then continue to build the melody.

Using the play two/rest two approach you get a little more time to establish a melody, but I find that during the two bar break the melody loses it's value.

Another thing regarding the backing track and the collaboration in general. I find that the climax of the backing track is very short, and no matter how you approach it you only get to play 2 bars in the climax.

Yet another thing which has been a constant annoyance of mine is that my tone never fits the backing track of any of your collaboration. I can never seem to find any... jazzy sound that I actually like from my Pandora (whether tweak and turning or just using the presets), and whereas I quite like my tone for the metal/rock-ish backing tracks, I have a hard time getting something proper on your collaborations. That of course is a problem of my own - but annoys me greatly. It's not really that my sound does not fit "soft" backing tracks, as I don't seem to have that problem with other "soft" backing tracks except yours. :/

By the way - me breaking the rules is not an indication of me not knowing the rules or knowing what to do with them tongue.gif

I'll upload what I have in the Upload thread now.


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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 12 2009, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Jul 12 2009, 08:09 PM) *
Hmm. Alright, I got something recorded now, but it's not very melodic, but I geuss it serves the purpose of the collaboration, though I'm bending the rules a little bit.

One thing that troubles me a bit regarding the melodic part of this is that playing something for one bar and then rest for one leaves you very little time to establish a melody (less than 2 seconds) and at least I find it difficult to establish a melody across a break of one bar and then continue to build the melody.

Using the play two/rest two approach you get a little more time to establish a melody, but I find that during the two bar break the melody loses it's value.

Another thing regarding the backing track and the collaboration in general. I find that the climax of the backing track is very short, and no matter how you approach it you only get to play 2 bars in the climax.

Yet another thing which has been a constant annoyance of mine is that my tone never fits the backing track of any of your collaboration. I can never seem to find any... jazzy sound that I actually like from my Pandora (whether tweak and turning or just using the presets), and whereas I quite like my tone for the metal/rock-ish backing tracks, I have a hard time getting something proper on your collaborations. That of course is a problem of my own - but annoys me greatly. It's not really that my sound does not fit "soft" backing tracks, as I don't seem to have that problem with other "soft" backing tracks except yours. :/

By the way - me breaking the rules is not an indication of me not knowing the rules or knowing what to do with them tongue.gif

I'll upload what I have in the Upload thread now.


Everything fully noted Ben smile.gif

I agree with you regarding Play Rest patterns. Backing track can't have different climax then the one that is already there because of final mix. If I do backing tracks that are 45 seconds long, we will end up with 12 minute final mix smile.gif So something has to be sacrificed in order for whole thing to work wink.gif

You did great with Play Rest patterns. It is difficult like you said to develop melodies fully but please remember the main purpose of this collaboration - to get you to rest and leave spaces in your melodies. We as guitar players always tend to overplay things. I said that million times and I will say it again. If we rest, we simply hold the note to ring out! Its some sort of guitarist feel if we remove playing hand that we might do something wrong or people might say you don't know how to play etc etc
So yes, I took everything in consideration and I am aware how some takes might sound not so natural compared to everything done before. You can take into consideration analyzing your rhythms and places where you can start and end your phrases. That is another really important part of this collaboration. You can play one note, two notes, and make it sound like they belong there wink.gif

I will post my take soon (tomorrow I hope) and you will hear my approach to it. I hope that will help you in future when you sit down and analyze (dig deeper) into your playing. IT should show strong and weak points in playing definitely!

Thanks for this message Ben. You can record more takes if you like, but if you want I can accept your current take you submitted ?

Pedja


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Caelumamittendum
post Jul 12 2009, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jul 12 2009, 11:34 PM) *
Everything fully noted Ben smile.gif

I agree with you regarding Play Rest patterns. Backing track can't have different climax then the one that is already there because of final mix. If I do backing tracks that are 45 seconds long, we will end up with 12 minute final mix smile.gif So something has to be sacrificed in order for whole thing to work wink.gif

Yeah, I know. That's actually one of the reasons why I like collaborations or jams the way they were done at Petrucciforum, when I used to write there. People would be given a backing track (either from a site or home-made) and it would be maybe 3 to 6 minuttes long or so. Just a regular backing track really, which both had it's ups and downs. People would be divided into groups and each person would be given like... 1 minute to solo. I think it gave another greater flow to the jam or collaboration as a whole - a much more song-like experience. Of course the purpose of that is completely different than on this site.

QUOTE
You did great with Play Rest patterns. It is difficult like you said to develop melodies fully but please remember the main purpose of this collaboration - to get you to rest and leave spaces in your melodies. We as guitar players always tend to overplay things. I said that million times and I will say it again. If we rest, we simply hold the note to ring out! Its some sort of guitarist feel if we remove playing hand that we might do something wrong or people might say you don't know how to play etc etc
So yes, I took everything in consideration and I am aware how some takes might sound not so natural compared to everything done before. You can take into consideration analyzing your rhythms and places where you can start and end your phrases. That is another really important part of this collaboration. You can play one note, two notes, and make it sound like they belong there wink.gif


The thing with the space between melody/melodies is just that I feel 1-2 bars of space is a bit too long, as stated. And that is why, even though I do know the purpose, rules and theory behind all this, I find myself wanting to do it a biiiit difference.

As I said to you on MSN, even if the idea is great (and it is), I don't think play one/rest one or play two/rest two is entirely like speaking, where you don't really talk in 4/4s and stop at every bar (unless you're on a pub crawl wink.gif). That is really why I like to hold some notes into the next bar - not an entire whole note, but maybe just 1/8th or 1/4th. That seems more "natural" to me.

Now I'm not saying it is not possible to fullfill the rules and purpose of this collaboration in a melodic way, but the way it is structured (play one/rest one etc.) is a... some what obstacle of having a more... guitar orientated track. I actually do think it would serve pretty alright as to some easy-listening stuff. I didn't approach it that way though.

QUOTE
I will post my take soon (tomorrow I hope) and you will hear my approach to it. I hope that will help you in future when you sit down and analyze (dig deeper) into your playing. IT should show strong and weak points in playing definitely!

Thanks for this message Ben. You can record more takes if you like, but if you want I can accept your current take you submitted ?

Pedja


I'm looking forward to seeing what you have got in mind for this Pedja, so I will be sure to check it out. I'm not sure if I'll be playing much guitar tomorrow. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. So if I haven't got anything recorded before the 24th of July, just go ahead and use what I've uploaded. I'm prepared for the critique of not having done it entirely right.

I'm leaving for Prague on Tuesday and won't be back untill the 22nd or 23rd, by the way.



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Paiva
post Jul 13 2009, 12:19 PM
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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 13 2009, 01:59 PM
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QUOTE (Paiva @ Jul 13 2009, 01:19 PM) *
I know I'm late... but can I be in?

If no I understand smile.gif


You are in Paiva smile.gif


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JamesT
post Jul 14 2009, 06:39 AM
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Pedja,
I guess what I'm noticing the most, is that this is forcing me to count smile.gif .
Yesterday, I started simple by just finding the 1,3,5, chord tones of each chord in various positions and playing them in quarter note triplets, 6 notes per bar and then rest one bar. This led to kind of a simple riff that sounded structured. Today, I just played eighths, with 8 notes per bar noodling around on the G Aeolian scale. It's not very musical yet, but it's really making me have to count so that I don't play too many notes and play into the part that's supposed to "rest". I'm hoping that I'll just develop a feel for how long a measure is so that in my phrasing, I'll be able to plan to end a phrase exactly where I always want it to end. Tomorrow, I'm going to work on 8 triplets and maybe the next day, 16ths which will have to be legato for me to play at this tempo. But I can imagine now how getting 16 notes of a phrase into one bar is going to sound cool, especially with some "planned" rests around it. After that, and before the end of this collab, I hope to mix this up for a final take to get something really interesting. Not sure how far I'll get, cause I've only got 11 days left, but this is fun, and forcing me to play in ways that I would not normally do if I was just jamming.

This post has been edited by JamesT: Jul 14 2009, 06:43 AM


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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 14 2009, 09:58 AM
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QUOTE (JamesT @ Jul 14 2009, 07:39 AM) *
Pedja,
I guess what I'm noticing the most, is that this is forcing me to count smile.gif .
Yesterday, I started simple by just finding the 1,3,5, chord tones of each chord in various positions and playing them in quarter note triplets, 6 notes per bar and then rest one bar. This led to kind of a simple riff that sounded structured. Today, I just played eighths, with 8 notes per bar noodling around on the G Aeolian scale. It's not very musical yet, but it's really making me have to count so that I don't play too many notes and play into the part that's supposed to "rest". I'm hoping that I'll just develop a feel for how long a measure is so that in my phrasing, I'll be able to plan to end a phrase exactly where I always want it to end. Tomorrow, I'm going to work on 8 triplets and maybe the next day, 16ths which will have to be legato for me to play at this tempo. But I can imagine now how getting 16 notes of a phrase into one bar is going to sound cool, especially with some "planned" rests around it. After that, and before the end of this collab, I hope to mix this up for a final take to get something really interesting. Not sure how far I'll get, cause I've only got 11 days left, but this is fun, and forcing me to play in ways that I would not normally do if I was just jamming.


Excellent Jim!
Right things are happening, keep working on it and submit a take when you feel its ready wink.gif


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kaznie_NL
post Jul 14 2009, 02:38 PM
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Busy with the Guitar MAster Competition this week, and then I'm off for holidays for 1,5 weeks on sunday so.... SORRY PEDJA! My appologese wink.gif


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Pedja Simovic
post Jul 15 2009, 11:16 AM
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QUOTE (kaznie_NL @ Jul 14 2009, 03:38 PM) *
Busy with the Guitar MAster Competition this week, and then I'm off for holidays for 1,5 weeks on sunday so.... SORRY PEDJA! My appologese wink.gif


No problem Kaz, have fun on holiday smile.gif


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berko
post Jul 17 2009, 01:20 PM
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Hey Pedja thanks for the auto sign-up. I've been away for a while doing some traveling and excursions - but now I'm back. This chapter of your collab series is really inspiring and I'm planning to dive into it right away smile.gif


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