2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Harmonic Minor Relative Modes
vampire18
post Jul 13 2009, 05:38 AM
Post #1


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 502
Joined: 6-February 09
From: israel
Member No.: 6.741



im currently practicing modal madness #2 which is harmonic minor modes and i dont understand why do the relative modes have such unmemorable wierd names, why arnet they jsut harmonic lydian or harmonic dorian?


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Oxac
post Jul 13 2009, 10:13 AM
Post #2


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 693
Joined: 14-June 07
From: Sweden
Member No.: 2.086



Because of the meaning of these names.

Ionian - the major scale
Dorian - Minor scale with a major 6th
Phrygian - Minor scale with a minor 2nd
Lydian - Major scale with a #4
Mixolydian - Major scale with a b7
Aeolian - The minor scale
Locrian - Minor scale with b2 and b5

Then we have a couple of other words.

Dominant, need to have the leading note of the tonic.

Harmonic minor was created for this purpose, because the classical composers thought that a major 7th was a better leading tone than a minor 7th because of that it's unstable and wants to resolve to the tonic.

in A aeolian we have A B C D E F G

Usually the fifth degree is considered to be a good dominant chord, but if we switch it to a major chord, it will give us a nice dominant feeling.

This yields E G# B, G# want to resolve to A, B want to resolve to C. Perfect smile.gif Now we end up with A harmonic minor.

The dominant we used came from what would've been the phrygian scale if we used the normal major mode. Combination of this is Phrygian Dominant, right?

Now, instead of just writing harmonic phrygian we have more information in this name. We know that it will build a nice dominant chord, we know (because of the combo, phrygian yields minor second, minor third, perfect fourth & fifth, minor 6th minor 7th, dominant in the fifth degree requires a major third. There ya go.

Same goes for all of these modes. The names are harder to remember than your suggestion, but they contain all the information necessary to actually change a known scale with raising 1 note and then just play it.

Altered Dominant bb7 is a little tougher and I think I might need some help explaining it. I'm looking forward to some nice posts.


--------------------
Olle "AJ" Svensson
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sted
post Jul 13 2009, 10:27 AM
Post #3


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.758
Joined: 13-April 08
From: Merseyside, UK
Member No.: 4.882



Great answer oxac, I can almost feel Pedja lurking here with some insane theory post!!!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
vampire18
post Jul 13 2009, 11:54 AM
Post #4


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 502
Joined: 6-February 09
From: israel
Member No.: 6.741



yeah it was a great answer, i still think my name is better lol but at least i understand why the name, they basically if i understand correctly tell me which number note to sharpen? and im sure pedja will log on sometime today to explain than last one

btw, very impressive theory knowlage and its not the first time, your learning all of that only from andrews theory or are you going to school somewhere?

another quick question, if i take the major d shape arpeggio(the most basic sweep arpeggio) and use the same shape exactly like


|--------------------------|
|--12--9--------------------|
|----------10---------------|
|---------------9----------|
|--------------------------|
|--------------------------|


what chord or chord type do i get?

This post has been edited by vampire18: Jul 13 2009, 12:03 PM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Oxac
post Jul 13 2009, 02:35 PM
Post #5


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 693
Joined: 14-June 07
From: Sweden
Member No.: 2.086



Good question! First we have to analyze what notes are there?

B G# F B.

Ok, Now we're talking diminished stuff here. Pretty interesting.

First we have to know the following thing.

Diminished triad:

Root, minor third, minor fifth.

1 b3 b5

Diminished 7th chord is:

Root, minor third, minor fifth, diminished seventh.

1 b3 b5 bb7


These notes B G# F can be seen in the following ways.

F dim triad, F Ab Cb in accending order. Ab because any third up from F has to be an A of some kind, Cb because any fifth up from F has to be a C of some kind.

G# dim7 without the b5. G# B (Db) F

Alternatively you can use this as a G#m6 because of F being enharmonically equal to E# which would be a major 6th up from G# yielding a chord without a fifth which is very common in jazz, because the root and fifth often is played by the bass player.

B dim7 without the third

B (Db) F Ab

Or Db dim7 without the root (my favourite use of this because the root is probably played by the bass player anyway)

(Db) F Ab Cb

I hope this helps smile.gif


I learned a lot from Andrews lessons, chatting with Pedja, reading posts, questions and their answers, discussing with people, playing, listening and taking 20 min lessons from a teacher every week (not anymore though).


--------------------
Olle "AJ" Svensson
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Muris Varajic
post Jul 13 2009, 03:15 PM
Post #6


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 15.459
Joined: 22-June 07
From: Sarajevo,Bosnia
Member No.: 2.159



Oxac did some reading and learning indeed, well done!! smile.gif

Regarding those names for relative modes,
they pretty much point out at notes that are altered
compared to scale or mode, you spotted that nicely.
Now, musicians need kind a common names
so they could easily talk about modes, chords etc
but also there are few different systems for naming scales or chords.
You probably noticed that some scales have different names
depending on site where you're looking at.
IMO the best thing is to know as many names as possible
for each single scale or chord so you could communicate
with different "types" of musicians.
And finally, the goal is that YOU understand what it is about. smile.gif


--------------------
Youtube
MySpace
Website



Album "Let It Out" on
iTunes
and CD Baby

Check out my video lessons and instructor board!

The Pianist
tune is progress,check it out!

"ok.. it is great.. :P

have you myspace? Can i to personalize this for you guy?"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Oxac
post Jul 13 2009, 03:32 PM
Post #7


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 693
Joined: 14-June 07
From: Sweden
Member No.: 2.086



Just to make sure that you understood this naming process.

Could you please tell me the notes of F Lydian Dominant?

Please let this be an exercise for the creator of this thread, so unless your name is Vampire18 I see no point in answering this question.

I'm still excited to hear a nice explaination for Altered Dominant bb7. I could explain it myself, but I'm not 100% sure and I don't think my explaination would be complete.

This post has been edited by Oxac: Jul 13 2009, 03:32 PM


--------------------
Olle "AJ" Svensson
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Jul 13 2009, 04:41 PM
Post #8


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



I am very happy to see Oxac did his homework smile.gif
Great discussion and questions.

I can perhaps add couple things to the discussion and try to make myself as clear as possible wink.gif


Major scale is where everything starts! From major scale we derive natural minor scale. From natural minor scale we then create Harmonic and Melodic minor by raising certain scale degrees.
Here is the layout of these scales using numbering and roman numerals.

Major scale = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (8)
Natural minor scale = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (8)
Harmonic minor scale = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 (8)
Melodic minor scale = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 (8)

Here are roman numerals for the scales mentioned

Major scale = I II III IV V VI VI VIII
Natural minor scale = I II bIII IV V bVI bVII VIII
Harmonic minor scale = I II bIII IV V bVI VII VIII
Melodic minor scale = I II bIII IV V VI VII VIII

Ok, now that we have a lay out of all 4 scales, it is time to get to real deal.

As I said in the beginning, every scale is related back to Major scale. Major scale has ALL PERFECT AND MAJOR INTERVALS! This is the reason why we write numbers 12345678 and roman numerals I II III IV V VI VI VIII.
Lets look at the major scale it will be easier from C note

C to D = MAJOR 2nd
C to E = MAJOR 3rd
C to F = PERFECT 4th
C to G = PERFECT 5th
C to A = MAJOR 6th
C to B = MAJOR 7th
C to C = OCTAVE smile.gif

Now every other scale (OR MODE) has different interval distance between the notes. This is why we ALTER all the other scales with b(FLAT) or #(SHARP) sign.
I hope that makes sense so far.

Now that we know why everything is related to major scale, it will be useful to say that we also keep the order of the modes the same !

Now lets go to A natural minor (A Aeolian mode).

Here are the notes: A B C D E F G A
It has exact notes as C major but we instead start and end on A note the same scale. This of course produces totally different relationship between the notes in this particular scale.
Here is the analysis for A natural minor :

A to B = MAJOR 2nd
A to C = MINOR 3rd = b3 or bIII!
A to D = PERFECT 4th
A to E = PERFECT 5th
A to F = MINOR 6th = b6 or bVI!
A to G = MINOR 7th = b7 or bVII!
A to A = OCTAVE

As you see now, we had one original scale (C major) and by starting on two different notes in that scale (C and A notes) we changed relationship between notes and the scale degrees !

Now lets look at the order of MODES in Major and Natural minor scale! I will also list the chord built from that particular scale degree.

Major scale :

I = IONIAN = Major triad or Major 7th chord
II = DORIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord
III = PHRYGIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord
IV = LYDIAN = Major triad or Major 7th chord
V = MIXOLYDIAN = Major triad or Dominant 7th chord
VI = AEOLIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord
VII = LOCRIAN = Diminished triad or Minor 7b5 chord
VIII = IONIAN = Major triad or Major 7th chord

Natural minor scale :

I = AEOLIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord
II = LOCRIAN = Diminished triad or Minor 7b5 chord
bIII = IONIAN = Major triad or Major 7th chord
IV = DORIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord
V = PHRYGIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord
bVI = LYDIAN = Major triad or Major 7th chord
bVII = MIXOLYDIAN = Major triad or Dominant 7th chord
VIII = AEOLIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord


Now I suggest you take your time and study everything I wrote above. You should notice that Major scale and Natural minor scale are : 1) Related 2) Natural minor is within original Major scale and so is Major within natural minor scale 3) All the types of modes and chords are shared in both scales 5) The only difference occurs regarding where we start from !
In one case we got IONIAN DORIAN etc ( MAJOR SCALE) in other we start from AEOLIAN and go to LOCRIAN then we are back to IONIAN AND WHOLE CYCLE REPEATS LIKE IF WE WERE IN MAJOR SCALE!


Now if you have learned all this , you will easily be able to understand why certain modes in Harmonic and Melodic minor have "weird" names smile.gif

We will basically relate everything we POSSIBLY can to original NATURAL MINOR SCALE.

Lets do A HARMONIC MINOR NOW
As I said in the beginning of the post, the only difference between Natural and Harmonic minor is in the type of 7th they have. Natural minor has minor 7th (b7) while Harmonic minor has major 7th (7)

Now we get this : A B C D E F G# A

Modes of harmonic minor are related to natural minor - as much as possible !

So we get this

I = A B C D E F G# A = Harmonic minor #1(#= number) or simply we call it Harmonic minor smile.gif
II = B C D E F G# A B = Harmonic minor #2 or we can call it LOCRIAN with natural 6th! (Lociran nat6)
bIII = C D E F G# A B C = Harmonic minor #3 or we can call it IONIAN with AUGMENTED 5th ! (Ionian #5)
IV = D E F G# A B C D = Harmonic minor #4 or we can call it DORIAN with AUGMENTED 4th (Dorian #4!)
V = E F G# A B C D E = Harmonic minor #5 or we can call it PHRYGIAN with major 3rd aka PHRYGIAN DOMINANT
bVI = F G# A B C D E F = Harmonic minor #6 or we can call it LYDIAN with AUGMENTED 2nd (Lydian #2)
VII = G# A B C D E F G# = Harmonic minor #7 or we can call it MIXOLYDIAN with b9#9b#11#5bb7!
This last one is very confusing because we used to play Dominant 7th chord on VII scale degree in Natural minor scale. Now in Harmonic minor scale we don't have ROOT MAJ3rd PERFECT 5th and MINOR 7th in 7th mode smile.gif This is why we end up with Dominant functioning chord that is actually from DIMINISHED FAMILY OF CHORDS!
Also this mode (Harmonic minor #7) starts like a DIMINISHED HALF WHOLE SCALE and then changes in the middle of it smile.gif
For those of you who don't know what diminished scale is , there is two types of diminish scales:
1) We can start on HALF STEP followed by WHOLE STEP and keep doing that until we reach the root of the scale
2) Or we can start on WHOLE STEP followed by HALF STEP and keep doing that until we reach the root of the scale.

Here is example of A HALF WHOLE DIMINISHED SCALE : A Bb C Db Eb F Gb(F#) G# A ! So we went here half whole half whole etc.
Here is example of A WHOLE HALF DIMINISHED SCALE : A B C D Eb F Gb(F#) G# A ! Here we went whole half whole half etc.

Now just to compare what I said before, Harmonic minor #7 is very similar to HALF WHOLE DIMINISHED FROM G#!

Here are two scales

VII = G# A B C D E F G# = Harmonic minor #7
Half whole from G# = G# A B C D Eb F Gb(F#) G# !

Notes that are bold are actually COMMON IN BOTH SCALES !

As final a final thing I just want to say that you can play G# diminished 7th chord over both scales. The notes of G# diminished 7th chord are G# B D F ! Notice that these 4 notes are contained in both scales above wink.gif


Ok guys this is it for this post. I hope you learned some things from it. Ask me any questions, I will be happy to respond.

Pedja


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sted
post Jul 13 2009, 05:39 PM
Post #9


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1.758
Joined: 13-April 08
From: Merseyside, UK
Member No.: 4.882



Ha! I KNEW he wouldnt be able to resist this post! I'll bet pedja can smell a theory post down his internet conection!!

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lcsdds
post Jul 13 2009, 06:19 PM
Post #10


Learning Tone Seeker
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.054
Joined: 2-September 08
Member No.: 5.825



QUOTE (Pedja Simovic @ Jul 13 2009, 04:41 PM) *
I am very happy to see Oxac did his homework smile.gif
Great discussion and questions.

I can perhaps add couple things to the discussion and try to make myself as clear as possible wink.gif


Major scale is where everything starts! From major scale we derive natural minor scale. From natural minor scale we then create Harmonic and Melodic minor by raising certain scale degrees.
Here is the layout of these scales using numbering and roman numerals.

Major scale = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (8)
Natural minor scale = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (8)
Harmonic minor scale = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 (8)
Melodic minor scale = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 (8)

Here are roman numerals for the scales mentioned

Major scale = I II III IV V VI VI VIII
Natural minor scale = I II bIII IV V bVI bVII VIII
Harmonic minor scale = I II bIII IV V bVI VII VIII
Melodic minor scale = I II bIII IV V VI VII VIII

Ok, now that we have a lay out of all 4 scales, it is time to get to real deal.

As I said in the beginning, every scale is related back to Major scale. Major scale has ALL PERFECT AND MAJOR INTERVALS! This is the reason why we write numbers 12345678 and roman numerals I II III IV V VI VI VIII.
Lets look at the major scale it will be easier from C note

C to D = MAJOR 2nd
C to E = MAJOR 3rd
C to F = PERFECT 4th
C to G = PERFECT 5th
C to A = MAJOR 6th
C to B = MAJOR 7th
C to C = OCTAVE smile.gif

Now every other scale (OR MODE) has different interval distance between the notes. This is why we ALTER all the other scales with b(FLAT) or #(SHARP) sign.
I hope that makes sense so far.

Now that we know why everything is related to major scale, it will be useful to say that we also keep the order of the modes the same !

Now lets go to A natural minor (A Aeolian mode).

Here are the notes: A B C D E F G A
It has exact notes as C major but we instead start and end on A note the same scale. This of course produces totally different relationship between the notes in this particular scale.
Here is the analysis for A natural minor :

A to B = MAJOR 2nd
A to C = MINOR 3rd = b3 or bIII!
A to D = PERFECT 4th
A to E = PERFECT 5th
A to F = MINOR 6th = b6 or bVI!
A to G = MINOR 7th = b7 or bVII!
A to A = OCTAVE

As you see now, we had one original scale (C major) and by starting on two different notes in that scale (C and A notes) we changed relationship between notes and the scale degrees !

Now lets look at the order of MODES in Major and Natural minor scale! I will also list the chord built from that particular scale degree.

Major scale :

I = IONIAN = Major triad or Major 7th chord
II = DORIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord
III = PHRYGIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord
IV = LYDIAN = Major triad or Major 7th chord
V = MIXOLYDIAN = Major triad or Dominant 7th chord
VI = AEOLIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord
VII = LOCRIAN = Diminished triad or Minor 7b5 chord
VIII = IONIAN = Major triad or Major 7th chord

Natural minor scale :

I = AEOLIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord
II = LOCRIAN = Diminished triad or Minor 7b5 chord
bIII = IONIAN = Major triad or Major 7th chord
IV = DORIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord
V = PHRYGIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord
bVI = LYDIAN = Major triad or Major 7th chord
bVII = MIXOLYDIAN = Major triad or Dominant 7th chord
VIII = AEOLIAN = Minor triad or Minor 7th chord


Now I suggest you take your time and study everything I wrote above. You should notice that Major scale and Natural minor scale are : 1) Related 2) Natural minor is within original Major scale and so is Major within natural minor scale 3) All the types of modes and chords are shared in both scales 5) The only difference occurs regarding where we start from !
In one case we got IONIAN DORIAN etc ( MAJOR SCALE) in other we start from AEOLIAN and go to LOCRIAN then we are back to IONIAN AND WHOLE CYCLE REPEATS LIKE IF WE WERE IN MAJOR SCALE!


Now if you have learned all this , you will easily be able to understand why certain modes in Harmonic and Melodic minor have "weird" names smile.gif

We will basically relate everything we POSSIBLY can to original NATURAL MINOR SCALE.

Lets do A HARMONIC MINOR NOW
As I said in the beginning of the post, the only difference between Natural and Harmonic minor is in the type of 7th they have. Natural minor has minor 7th (b7) while Harmonic minor has major 7th (7)

Now we get this : A B C D E F G# A

Modes of harmonic minor are related to natural minor - as much as possible !

So we get this

I = A B C D E F G# A = Harmonic minor #1(#= number) or simply we call it Harmonic minor smile.gif
II = B C D E F G# A B = Harmonic minor #2 or we can call it LOCRIAN with natural 6th! (Lociran nat6)
bIII = C D E F G# A B C = Harmonic minor #3 or we can call it IONIAN with AUGMENTED 5th ! (Ionian #5)
IV = D E F G# A B C D = Harmonic minor #4 or we can call it DORIAN with AUGMENTED 4th (Dorian #4!)
V = E F G# A B C D E = Harmonic minor #5 or we can call it PHRYGIAN with major 3rd aka PHRYGIAN DOMINANT
bVI = F G# A B C D E F = Harmonic minor #6 or we can call it LYDIAN with AUGMENTED 2nd (Lydian #2)
VII = G# A B C D E F G# = Harmonic minor #7 or we can call it MIXOLYDIAN with b9#9b#11#5bb7!
This last one is very confusing because we used to play Dominant 7th chord on VII scale degree in Natural minor scale. Now in Harmonic minor scale we don't have ROOT MAJ3rd PERFECT 5th and MINOR 7th in 7th mode smile.gif This is why we end up with Dominant functioning chord that is actually from DIMINISHED FAMILY OF CHORDS!
Also this mode (Harmonic minor #7) starts like a DIMINISHED HALF WHOLE SCALE and then changes in the middle of it smile.gif
For those of you who don't know what diminished scale is , there is two types of diminish scales:
1) We can start on HALF STEP followed by WHOLE STEP and keep doing that until we reach the root of the scale
2) Or we can start on WHOLE STEP followed by HALF STEP and keep doing that until we reach the root of the scale.

Here is example of A HALF WHOLE DIMINISHED SCALE : A Bb C Db Eb F Gb(F#) G# A ! So we went here half whole half whole etc.
Here is example of A WHOLE HALF DIMINISHED SCALE : A B C D Eb F Gb(F#) G# A ! Here we went whole half whole half etc.

Now just to compare what I said before, Harmonic minor #7 is very similar to HALF WHOLE DIMINISHED FROM G#!

Here are two scales

VII = G# A B C D E F G# = Harmonic minor #7
Half whole from G# = G# A B C D Eb F Gb(F#) G# !

Notes that are bold are actually COMMON IN BOTH SCALES !

As final a final thing I just want to say that you can play G# diminished 7th chord over both scales. The notes of G# diminished 7th chord are G# B D F ! Notice that these 4 notes are contained in both scales above wink.gif


Ok guys this is it for this post. I hope you learned some things from it. Ask me any questions, I will be happy to respond.

Pedja

blink.gif huh.gif

laugh.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Oxac
post Jul 13 2009, 06:56 PM
Post #11


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 693
Joined: 14-June 07
From: Sweden
Member No.: 2.086



Pedja, great post! From basic to intermediate, not skipping anything. That must have taken you almost half an hour! Thanks.

But really, altered dominant bb7? I'm not really 100% sure about the altered part. I have a good Idea of where it comes from, but I'm not sure about it.

This is my "good idea":

bb7 comes from the double flatted seventh. No confusion there.

Dominant is because of it functioning as a dominant chord.

Altered because of b5 b9 b11 b13?

And why do you write that like:
#5,bb7, b9, #9, #11?
what happens to the sixth?

I think it is because of then it will provide us with a major third, instead of a minor third (whilst the b11 would yield the major part...). If we then use it as a fifthless G#6 it will sound less unhappy... But it confuses me a little.

-EDIT- Now I'm going to make myself a moussaka. I'll return once it's placed nicely in the oven.

This post has been edited by Oxac: Jul 13 2009, 06:59 PM


--------------------
Olle "AJ" Svensson
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
vampire18
post Jul 13 2009, 08:16 PM
Post #12


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 502
Joined: 6-February 09
From: israel
Member No.: 6.741



QUOTE (Oxac @ Jul 13 2009, 04:32 PM) *
Just to make sure that you understood this naming process.

Could you please tell me the notes of F Lydian Dominant?

Please let this be an exercise for the creator of this thread, so unless your name is Vampire18 I see no point in answering this question.

I'm still excited to hear a nice explaination for Altered Dominant bb7. I could explain it myself, but I'm not 100% sure and I don't think my explaination would be complete.


well i know that f lydian has the same notes has the same notes as c ionian because i learnd a bit about relative modes from the first modal madness but if i had'nt
lydian as you said is like the major scale with a shrpened 4th
so f major is following the 2212221
F G A A# C D E F
if i sharpen the 4th which is A# i get
F G A B C D E F

now for the dominant part, i think dominant is the 5th but i dont know what it means but i know from the modal madness that E phrygian dominant has the same notes as A harmonic minor
so A HM
A B C D E F G#
so E phrygian dominant is
E F G# A B C D

so my guess is that f lydian dominant is
F G A# B C D E F

but thats not a very good answer , i dont understand what leading tone and dominant is enough for a good answer because if you told me to give you the first answer that came to mind i would sharpen the 5th unless dominant talks about how to tranfer from the ionian mode because if i take C major, G really is the fifth.
its a guess, but im pretty sure it isnt right, jsut doesnt really add up, hope you correct me and help me undersatnd, lol im getting dizzy and i doubt my answer is right


edit: after googling leading tone and finding that its the tone that leads to the root(i forgot the name) and reading your post again im gussing that you have to do something to the E and since sharpening it wont work im guessing
F G A B C D Eb F
but thats meaningless guessing, i guess i didnt understand like i thoght

ok after reading pedjas post for i think 15 times im more inclined toward my first answer because he said phyryian dominant is phyrigian with a major third so F lydian dominant should be F lydian with a major third?
but than i went ahead and checked wolfram alpha and he said the second answer was right so im untterely confused like i havn't been in a long time

p.s i love moussaka, i envy you right now, but its a ton of work, my mom makes it once a year when i beg enough lol


This post has been edited by vampire18: Jul 13 2009, 08:52 PM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Oxac
post Jul 13 2009, 09:18 PM
Post #13


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 693
Joined: 14-June 07
From: Sweden
Member No.: 2.086



Ok, good to see you try! I hope this will help you come a little further.

That was actually quite of a complicated example but anyway.

Lydian Dominant is derived from the Melodic minor scale, 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 (8), which in C would give us C D Eb F G A B ©

But what we actually do is we take our major scale in F

F G A Bb C D E (F)

Give it the augmented fourth (#4) which provide the lydian quality.

Now, F dominant 7, short - F7 have the following notes F A C Eb which means that we should lower the seventh.

This yields F G A (B) C D (Eb) (F).

Now, the complicated part.. how do we use this scale and the chord it builds?

We have to jump back to the dominant theory again.


E major is the tonic. Fifth degree of the scale would yield a nice dominant chord, B7 that is.

Now, why does it have this dominant function? Because the 2nd 4th and 7th notes of the scale have this function. Pedja describes it nicely Here.

B7 have the 2nd (F#) and seventh (D#) so it's a nice choice.

It's time to introduce the tritone substitution.

If we raise (or lower, doesn't matter) B7 to F7 we will get F A C Eb. Now, we have a more interesting sound, we have the fourth note (A) we have the 7th note (Eb) perfect. Conclusion, substituting a Dominant 7th chord with the dominant 7th chord a b5 up keeps the dominant leading quality.

If we see an F7 we would almost automatically play F mixolydian over it. F mixo gives us F G A Bb C D Eb. The problem here is Bb, pretty unstable tone in relation the E. Try playing an Emaj7 and then play a Bb (not cool!). So we just raise that tone to B. Sounds much better. This gives us F G A B C D Eb.

This gives us F lydian scale with dominant quality, hencethe F Lydian dominant.


Sorry about this post being less structured, I haven't eaten in 8 hours and my moussaka is finished... NOW!

-EDIT- disabled emoticons 'cause of B)
-EDIT 2- Deleted unwanted text.
-EDit 3- I'm so hungry that my fingers are shaking... I'm going to satisfy my hunger now.
-Eddit 4- Going to the garden to bring some lettuce.
-Edit 5- Added 3 tomatoes, those tiny ones.. yumm. gonna eat now. I'm starving.
-Edit 6- Ate it, was perfectly cooked exept for the aubergins, could've been fried a bit more. Other than that... perfect. Yumm. I just wish I had someone to share it with. I guess I won't think like that tomorrow when I'll eat the rest of it. :)
-Edit 7- Now I'm full, thirsty and tired. So i'm gonna drink, brush my teeth & go to sleep. Over and Out.

This post has been edited by Oxac: Jul 13 2009, 10:10 PM


--------------------
Olle "AJ" Svensson
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
vampire18
post Jul 13 2009, 10:21 PM
Post #14


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 502
Joined: 6-February 09
From: israel
Member No.: 6.741



thx, i understand how to create f lydian now ill try doing lets say
G mixolodian dominant

so G Major is
G A B C D E F#
so lower the 7th
G A B C D E F

now lets see whats is Gdominant 7 or G7
G+4semi B+3 D+4 F????
comes out exactly the same? why?

nvm lets try F phrygian dominant
f major
F G A Bb C D E
now we need minor 2nd for phrygian minor 3rd 6th and 7th for minor
F Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb F

now F dominant 7 is F A C Eb
so we need to sharpen the Ab so
F Gb A Bb C Db Eb F

just checked and worlfam alpha agrees, so you can go on with your day knowing you made me just a little bit smarter, thogh i gotta say after you said "now it gets hard" i just couldnt take it anymore so ill read it tomorrow, same with pedja, thank you too and i think i understand everything besides the last part about the deminished scale and the #7 harmonic ill re read it tomorrow and see if it getts easier

edit: spelling

This post has been edited by vampire18: Jul 13 2009, 10:22 PM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Emir Hot
post Jul 13 2009, 11:16 PM
Post #15


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 7.201
Joined: 14-July 08
From: London UK
Member No.: 5.490



I have just read this whole thread and there are some amazing posts for those that like modes and theory. Oxac did a great research about this. I couldn't believe that from a very simple question this thread got this response smile.gif

Harmonic minor modes

1) Aeolian #7 (Harmonic Minor) - A B C D E F G# - AmMaj7(b6)
2) Locrian #6 - B C D E F G# A - Bm7b5
3) Ionian #5 - C D E F G# A B - Cmaj7#5
4) Dorian #4 - D E F G# A B C - Dm7(#11)
5) Phrygian #3 (Phrygian Dominant) - E F G# A B C D - E7(b9,b13)
6) Lydian #2 - F G# A B C D E - Fmaj7(#9)
7) Mixolydian #1 (Diminished) - G# A B C D E F - G#dim7

the last one people also call - Altered Dominant bb7

If you want modes of Melodic Minor Scale they are as follows: (this one is used in jazz non-stop)

1. Ionian b3 (Melodic Minor)
2. Dorian b2
3. Phrygian "b1" (Lydian #5)
4. Lydian b7
5. Mixolydian b6
6. Aeolian b5
7. Locrian (Superlocrian) b4


--------------------
Check out my <a href="https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/instructor/Emir-Hot" target="_blank">Instructor profile</a>

www.emirhot.com
www.myspace.com/emirhotguitar
www.myspace.com/sevdahmetal
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Oxac
post Jul 14 2009, 06:34 AM
Post #16


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 693
Joined: 14-June 07
From: Sweden
Member No.: 2.086



@Vampire18 you're almost there now!

Dominant mixolydian, good thinking but your skipping one part here.

"Ionian dominant" let's do G "ionian dominant"

G ionian - G A B C D E F#

Lowering the seventh to a dominant seventh

G A B C D E F.... This yields the G mixolydian scale which mean that Mixolydian already are dominant because of the major third and minor seventh, so we can't really make mixo much more dominant by making sure it's got those two notes because it already does have them smile.gif

@ Emir, thanks for outlining the modes nicely smile.gif



--------------------
Olle "AJ" Svensson
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
JamesT
post Jul 14 2009, 06:48 AM
Post #17


Accomplished Tone Master
*

Group: Members
Posts: 757
Joined: 12-April 08
From: USA, NV
Member No.: 4.872



I have to bookmark this thread, cause it's late, I've had a couple of beers, and my head is about to explode reading it. biggrin.gif


--------------------


Check out my YouTube Channel
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pedja Simovic
post Jul 14 2009, 10:12 AM
Post #18


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 8.109
Joined: 13-September 08
From: Nis, Serbia
Member No.: 5.892



QUOTE (JamesT @ Jul 14 2009, 07:48 AM) *
I have to bookmark this thread, cause it's late, I've had a couple of beers, and my head is about to explode reading it. biggrin.gif


laugh.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ivan Milenkovic
post Jul 14 2009, 08:53 PM
Post #19


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 25.396
Joined: 20-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.341



Great reading from Oxac, Pedja and Emir, small little question spawned the river of theory posts! smile.gif


--------------------
- Ivan's Video Chat Lesson Notes HERE
- Check out my GMC Profile and Lessons
- (Please subscribe to my) YouTube Official Channel
- Let's be connected through ! Facebook! :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
JamesT
post Jul 23 2009, 02:34 AM
Post #20


Accomplished Tone Master
*

Group: Members
Posts: 757
Joined: 12-April 08
From: USA, NV
Member No.: 4.872



QUOTE (Ivan Milenkovic @ Jul 14 2009, 12:53 PM) *
Great reading from Oxac, Pedja and Emir, small little question spawned the river of theory posts! smile.gif



It sure did. I came back to this thread and read the whole thing. The first half covered just about a full semester of music theory that I had in college. The second half even went beyond. It's too bad that I didn't work back then to relate this to the guitar. This really helps with fretboard knowlege as it applies to harmony (backing tracks). ... a great read for sure. cool.gif


--------------------


Check out my YouTube Channel
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Fast ReplyReply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th October 2017 - 03:56 PM