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> Alternative Vs Economy
Chokehold
post Jul 22 2009, 07:43 PM
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Just a quick question, how long will it take until I can play it flawless?
It's not like a year, or?


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Emir Hot
post Jul 22 2009, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 22 2009, 07:43 PM) *
Just a quick question, how long will it take until I can play it flawless?
It's not like a year, or?


That's really individial. Depends how much you practice. Someone might get it quicker and someone not. But everyone can get there eventualy.


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Zeyth
post Jul 22 2009, 08:00 PM
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http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDir...nalPicking.aspx

Anyone read that yet?


|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||


And I can't see why this wouldn't work with the directional picking (things have many names laugh.gif) described in the article I've linked to. ( http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDir...nalPicking.aspx )

Aside from that, please explain why "alternate sounds better"??
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lcsdds
post Jul 22 2009, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 08:00 PM) *
http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDir...nalPicking.aspx

Anyone read that yet?


|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||


And I can't see why this wouldn't work with the directional picking (things have many names laugh.gif) described in the article I've linked to. ( http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDir...nalPicking.aspx )

Aside from that, please explain why "alternate sounds better"??


It wouldn't work because every time you change strings on a two string lick like that you are changing direction. To change the direction your pick is moving.....from a higher string to a lower string or vice versa.....you need an EVEN number of notes on the string so you can "sweep" it. If you start that lick on an upstroke then when you are ready to change strings your pick will be moving up and you want it to be moving down......if you start on a down stroke your pick will be going in the right direction to sweep to the E string. So you will start picking the E string with a downstroke and when you are ready to move back to the B string your pick will be going down instead of up......to change directions you need an even number of notes on the string. This is why economy picking licks need to be "planned" out for the most part. Unless you are Frank Gambale and it is just so ingrained in your muscle memory that you don't have to think about it anymore. But he just has a billion stock licks that he combines I would imagine. Economy picking fits a specific mathmatical formula.......Odd number of notes on a string to keep your pick going in the same direction and an even number to change your picking direction.


smile.gif

This post has been edited by lcsdds: Jul 22 2009, 08:25 PM
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Zeyth
post Jul 22 2009, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 22 2009, 08:18 PM) *
It wouldn't work because every time you change strings on a two string lick like that you are changing direction. To change the direction your pick is moving.....from a higher string to a lower string or vice versa.....you need an EVEN number of notes on the string so you can "sweep" it. If you start that lick on an upstroke then when you are ready to change strings your pick will be moving up and you want it to be moving down......if you start on a down stroke your pick will be going in the right direction to sweep to the E string. So you will start picking the E string with a downstroke and when you are ready to move back to the B string your pick will be going down instead of up......to change directions you need an even number of notes on the string. This is why economy picking licks need to be "planned" out for the most part. Unless you are Frank Gambale and it is just so ingrained in your muscle memory that you don't have to think about it anymore. But he just has a billion stock licks that he combines I would imagine. Economy picking fits a specific mathmatical formula.......Odd number of notes on a string to keep your pick going in the same direction and an even number to change your picking direction.


smile.gif


Then I must have discovered a whole new picking technique: Zeyth picking laugh.gif Or someone hasn't read the article I linked to laugh.gif


Tab 1 A and B
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
A D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D U
B U D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||


Edited tab to feature the two possible picking patterns to use with alternate picking (correct me if I'm wrong laugh.gif)


Tab 2
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
D U D D U D ERROR!!!!!!!!!
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||


This is what you try to say?

If we take economy picking, and add a little wasted motion, couldn't we get something similar to:

Tab 3
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
D U D D U D D U D D U D D U D D U D
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||


Likewise:


Tab 4
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
U D U U D U U D U U D U U D U U D U
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||


Both of these two "economies" feature less wasted motion than tab 1 A.
Of course due to the... String jumping? One could say that it's not really economy picking, but I think economy is more about spending as little as possible, than spending nothing at all laugh.gif


The unfamour Zeyth picking pattern
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
D U D D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||


I would also like to apologize for any displacements when it comes to having the symbols of the picking pattern above the fret-numbers, and I might as well just excuse my humour while I'm at it laugh.gif
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lcsdds
post Jul 22 2009, 09:02 PM
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Not trying to be a jerk Zeyth.....but I don't need to read the article to know that that lick WILL NOT work with economy picking.....at least not achieving any kind of speed and smoothness it won't. Economy picking is a simple mathematical concept.....especially if we are talking about being able to play those 16th triplets at 160 bpm. smile.gif Muris said in his post that that lick is not set up for economy picking and Emir said you could only do it if you add on a hammer-on.

Again....not trying to be a jerk. smile.gif
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Zeyth
post Jul 22 2009, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 22 2009, 09:02 PM) *
Not trying to be a jerk Zeyth.....but I don't need to read the article to know that that lick WILL NOT work with economy picking.....at least not achieving any kind of speed and smoothness it won't. Economy picking is a simple mathematical concept.....especially if we are talking about being able to play those 16th triplets at 160 bpm. smile.gif Muris said in his post that that lick is not set up for economy picking and Emir said you could only do it if you add on a hammer-on.

Again....not trying to be a jerk. smile.gif


Ah, but when I read the article, I found that it offered a new idea I hadn't seen written anywhere else before.
Then again, I haven't read every article about economy picking written, either.
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lcsdds
post Jul 22 2009, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 09:08 PM) *
Ah, but when I read the article, I found that it offered a new idea I hadn't seen written anywhere else before.
Then again, I haven't read every article about economy picking written, either.

But Zeyth.....the point of Economy picking is to ELIMINATE pick strokes. The way you those licks tabbed to pick you are actually adding pick strokes. Try picking it the way you have it written for your ZEYTH picking.......it will become glaringly apparent that you will never achieve any kind of speed doing it that way. smile.gif
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Emir Hot
post Jul 22 2009, 09:21 PM
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QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 08:00 PM) *
Anyone read that yet?


And I can't see why this wouldn't work with the directional picking (things have many names laugh.gif) described in the article I've linked to. ( http://tomhess.net/Articles/AlternateVsDir...nalPicking.aspx )

Aside from that, please explain why "alternate sounds better"??


I have read it and I can tell you that this guy is retarded. Look at this sentence:

"However it takes a LONGER time to master alternate picking than it does directional picking due to excess movement that the technique requires. Moreover, it is not as ergonomically efficient thus increasing the risk of possible injury."

When I saw this I stopped reading. It is not true that it takes LONGER time neither that can cause an injury. The truth is that this guy learned to use economy picking and of course now it would take him ages to change to alternate. Where are the references in his story? He can't just talk from personal experience.

And about why alternate sounds better, I actually didn't say that. If you want to sound more agressive then you should go for alternate picking as every note has its own attack. If you economy pick a lick, it will sound softer and smoother. That's why jazz guys use it because it colors the sound different. When you make that double downstroke movement in economy picked lick, the second (sweeped) note won't have as much attack and therefore the connection between the two will be softer. Think about why very fast 5 or 6 string arpeggio sounds nice when you sweep it all from top to bottom like Yngwie does (especially on the neck pickup position). Imagine now if such arpeggio was alternate picked in that speed. It would sound nothing softer than a machine gun. That's why both techniques have their use in different situation. For the lick that I posted, AP is the right way to go as that one needs to be as agressive as possible. That lick just asks for that and it is very obvious that it sounds much tighter if you alternate pick it. Try it yourself if you don't trust me smile.gif


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Zeyth
post Jul 22 2009, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 22 2009, 09:14 PM) *
But Zeyth.....the point of Economy picking is to ELIMINATE pick strokes. The way you those licks tabbed to pick you are actually adding pick strokes. Try picking it the way you have it written for your ZEYTH picking.......it will become glaringly apparent that you will never achieve any kind of speed doing it that way. smile.gif


Adding pick strokes?
Eliminate pick strokes?
Now I'm just confused.
How can jumping from the e to b string, and then go d,u,d,and d down onto the e string equal more pick strokes?
And my Zeyth picking feature very little wasted motion, thank you.
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lcsdds
post Jul 22 2009, 09:32 PM
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QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 09:22 PM) *
Adding pick strokes?
Eliminate pick strokes?
Now I'm just confused.
How can jumping from the e to b string, and then go d,u,d,and d down onto the e string equal more pick strokes?
And my Zeyth picking feature very little wasted motion, thank you.

I don't think you understand what economy picking is. Your Zeyth picking is just a combination of economy and alternate. You used economy to change from B to E string and then stuck with alternate to go back from E to B.....because economy won't work in that situation. At least not economy the way it is meant to be used.

I agree 100% with Emir an that article. Tom Hess is in the business of selling "private" lessons with him so of course he going to tell you that Economy/directional picking is better. I have heard Frank Gambale......who is to Economy picking what EVH is to tapping.....say that Economy picking is MORE DIFFICULT to master than AP. Emir has spoken to him personally and Frank told him that Economy picking won't work for everything......it needs to be planned. smile.gif
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Zeyth
post Jul 22 2009, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 22 2009, 09:21 PM) *
I have read it and I can tell you that this guy is retarded. Look at this sentence:

"However it takes a LONGER time to master alternate picking than it does directional picking due to excess movement that the technique requires. Moreover, it is not as ergonomically efficient thus increasing the risk of possible injury."

When I saw this I stopped reading. It is not true that it takes LONGER time neither that can cause an injury. The truth is that this guy learned to use economy picking and of course now it would take him ages to change to alternate. Where are the references in his story? He can't just talk from personal experience.

And about why alternate sounds better, I actually didn't say that. If you want to sound more agressive then you should go for alternate picking as every note has its own attack. If you economy pick a lick, it will sound softer and smoother. That's why jazz guys use it because it colors the sound different. When you make that double downstroke movement in economy picked lick, the second (sweeped) note won't have as much attack and therefore the connection between the two will be softer. Think about why very fast 5 or 6 string arpeggio sounds nice when you sweep it all from top to bottom like Yngwie does (especially on the neck pickup position). Imagine now if such arpeggio was alternate picked in that speed. It would sound nothing softer than a machine gun. That's why both techniques have their use in different situation. For the lick that I posted, AP is the right way to go as that one needs to be as agressive as possible. That lick just asks for that and it is very obvious that it sounds much tighter if you alternate pick it. Try it yourself if you don't trust me smile.gif


He states further down that he first used economy as a beginner, then changed to alternate when he got a guitar teacher, and has changed back after a long time using alternate picking, and than economy picking felt more natural than ever for him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_fE0DkPuG4 << The author of the article, playing. Whee.

The injury he talks about is most likely injury from repeated motions, due to up,down,up,down,up, down, up, down biggrin.gif

On the other hand: More agressive? I just might change picking style biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
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Muris Varajic
post Jul 22 2009, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 22 2009, 08:42 PM) *
If you hammer on notes on the 1st string then in theory you could play it with economy but still that's nonsense to me smile.gif


Well yeah, that would be nonsense indeed,
point of economy picking IS to play as many notes as possible
with the pick which means to use one downstroke or upstroke
for 2 notes on 2 different strings, just like small sweeps.
Rest of the notes should be played with the pick
so it's like mix of sweeping and alternate,
otherwise it'd be just sweeping. smile.gif

QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 22 2009, 10:21 PM) *
I have read it and I can tell you that this guy is retarded. Look at this sentence:

"However it takes a LONGER time to master alternate picking than it does directional picking due to excess movement that the technique requires. Moreover, it is not as ergonomically efficient thus increasing the risk of possible injury."

When I saw this I stopped reading. It is not true that it takes LONGER time neither that can cause an injury. The truth is that this guy learned to use economy picking and of course now it would take him ages to change to alternate.


Brilliant laugh.gif


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Chokehold
post Jul 22 2009, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 09:48 PM) *

The unfamour Zeyth picking pattern
|-3-| |-3-| |--3-| |--3-| |--3--| |--3--|
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
D U D D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D
E||--------5-7-8--------7-8-10---------8-10-12-||
B||--5-6-8-------7-8-10--------8-10-12---------||
G||--------------------------------------------||
D||--------------------------------------------||
A||--------------------------------------------||
E||--------------------------------------------||


This is how I have picked everything so far, I thought it was economy but I'm just another noob then. mellow.gif


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Muris Varajic
post Jul 22 2009, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 10:22 PM) *
Adding pick strokes?
Eliminate pick strokes?
Now I'm just confused.
How can jumping from the e to b string, and then go d,u,d,and d down onto the e string equal more pick strokes?
And my Zeyth picking feature very little wasted motion, thank you.


Eliminating strokes, yeah.
Economy picking has a meaning when you're crossing 2 different strings,
you use either one downstroke or one upstroke to play both strings.
And it's very effective for 3nps runs.
Let say you play 3nps over all 6 string with alternate, that's 18 strokes.
And if you do it with economy you get 13 strokes.
Or should I said picking motions cause stroke is needed for each note. smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Jul 22 2009, 09:58 PM
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QUOTE (Zeyth @ Jul 22 2009, 09:34 PM) *
He states further down that he first used economy as a beginner, then changed to alternate when he got a guitar teacher, and has changed back after a long time using alternate picking, and than economy picking felt more natural than ever for him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_fE0DkPuG4 << The author of the article, playing. Whee.

The injury he talks about is most likely injury from repeated motions, due to up,down,up,down,up, down, up, down biggrin.gif

On the other hand: More agressive? I just might change picking style biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


I've just seen his video and laughed more than when I first saw Michael Angelo's first instructional video 20 years ago. Today there are 50.000 players in the world like this guy. Just bunch of shred licks, fast scales and nothing else. I do appreciate his technique and time spent for mastering it but I don't think I would buy his album.


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Muris Varajic
post Jul 22 2009, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (Chokehold @ Jul 22 2009, 10:56 PM) *
This is how I have picked everything so far, I thought it was economy but I'm just another noob then. mellow.gif


It was economy but also alternate as well,
take a look how you switch back to B string after high E,
you end with downstroke on high E and then you use upstroke for B,
that's VERY outside for picking
and you would never get into same situation if you used straight alternate picking,
you would end with an upstroke on high E string and B string is in the same direction, up. smile.gif


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lcsdds
post Jul 22 2009, 10:02 PM
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QUOTE (Emir Hot @ Jul 22 2009, 09:58 PM) *
I've just seen his video and laughed more than when I first saw Michael Angelo's first instructional video 20 years ago. Today there are 50.000 players in the world like this guy. Just bunch of shred licks, fast scales and nothing else. I do appreciate his technique and time spent for mastering it but I don't think I would buy his album.

Did you leave a comment Emir..... tongue.gif laugh.gif
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Chokehold
post Jul 22 2009, 10:02 PM
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QUOTE (Muris Varajic @ Jul 22 2009, 11:00 PM) *
It was economy but also alternate as well,
take a look how you switch back to B string after high E,
you end with downstroke on high E and then you use upstroke for B,
that's VERY outside for picking
and you would never get into same situation if you used straight alternate picking,
you would end with an upstroke on high E string and B string is in the same direction, up. smile.gif


So what do you call it then? smile.gif


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Emir Hot
post Jul 22 2009, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE (lcsdds @ Jul 22 2009, 10:02 PM) *
Did you leave a comment Emir..... tongue.gif laugh.gif


hahaha NO smile.gif


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